Autocross and Road Course Racing - AutoX Newbie needs help with Setup

I've tried to research and run different types of setups and some things are better than others. I raced at the local SCCA Solo2 event yesterday and came in third in my class but my time was two seconds slower than the same Civic set at stock height. This really chaps my butt so I thought I would reach out to the AutoX community and get some feedback.

Here's what I'm running in DSP Class:

1997 Civic 2-Door
Engine Mods:
B16
DC Sport Header
Short Ram intake
MSD Ignition
Ported and Polished Head
Suspension Mods:
Koni Adjustable Shocks
Skunk2 Coilovers
Suspension Techniques Anti-Sway Bar Front/Rear 19mm
Rollers:
17" Racing Hart CP8s
Yokahama Spec2 205/40


I've tried following the advice here: http://www.redshiftmotorsports.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=12and I got tons of oversteer so I stiffened up the front shocks to fully firm. This helped but still getting understeer into corners. I know that I need to change my tires and get some track tires but I'm trying to maximize my car before I put on sticky's. The car is lowered with the coilovers enough so that the tires don't rub. The rear fender is rolled when I had it slammed and I quickly found out that raising the car actually made the car respond better. A '99 Civic at stock height with aftermarket rims beat my time so here are my questions.

Questions:
Do I raise the car up more to give the shocks a better response? I always thought a lowered car handled better.

I'm running 28lbs in the front tires and 25lbs in the rear. Too low of air pressure causing understeer?


I know there are some AutoX guru's out there. Too bad no civic gurus are running in my local SCCA.

Two suggestions from me:

1. Raise your tire pressure, that sounds underinflated even for street use...
2. May I suggest smaller diameter wheels? I know those are light wheels, but the diameter also has some say in how fast you accelerate.

ORIGINAL: keithisjonesn
Questions:
Do I raise the car up more to give the shocks a better response? I always thought a lowered car handled better.

I'm running 28lbs in the front tires and 25lbs in the rear. Too low of air pressure causing understeer?


I know there are some AutoX guru's out there. Too bad no civic gurus are running in my local SCCA.



- u want the car to be pretty low to have a low center of gravity, but def. not slammed. u want enoughshaft travel so u dont ride the bump stops but also not to much because afterall, u want to minimize suspension travel(hencethe need forhigh spring rates and properly valved shocks).high or low, u'll need the proper spring rates. i believe all of Skunk2's setups(unless u have custom spring rates) have a higher spring rate in the front than in the rear. that will cause ur car to understeer. mostppl who autox/road race run with slightly higher rates in the rear than the front so the car will rotate.

-raise ur pressure like 10psi atleast. like Roto said, thats low even for the streets. ur just killing ur sidewalls because their rolling over. raise the pressure, play around with different settings untill the tires grip and the car handles like u want em too. u may not notice it now, but with more experience, a 2psi difference will become very noticable.


just because their stock dosnt mean they cant be fast...mod ur car all u want, u could still very easily run a slower time. its all about the driver.

my questions:
-what type Konis(sports or race)?
-what are the spring rates/size on the Skunk2's?
-how many events have u done?
-any novice schools?

lol....the hydrant stand squad was here

I will soon be a member;)( new rear sway on the way )

Btw, I know they covered it already, but I run 35 up front and 40 rear. Others will tell you different things, but no matter what way you look at it, you are running WAY low on pressures.

hahha you guys have some way stiff suspension for the hydrant stance

In my case I have unindependent (is this even a word?) suspension and lots of body roll, so I can do those very easy...handles like crap though

Was this your first event? You probably just need a lot more air in your tires, and more practice. :)

ORIGINAL: civicexracer

my questions:
-what type Konis(sports or race)?
-what are the spring rates/size on the Skunk2's?
-how many events have u done?
-any novice schools?



Yes, air pressure is a definite. I ride around the street with 40psi and I will try 35-40 on the track.

-I have the yellow adjustable Koni Sports Shocks. They have adjustable rings around the shock depending on suspension setup. I have raised the rear ring up to put the coilover perch higher and allow the shock more travel. The Front shock I left in the middle(stock setting).

-My skunk2's have???? 4.00.73? I think I remember that being on the spring.

-I have raced in about 7 events total.

-No novice schools. I have read up in the SCCA manual and other autoX mags/books about driving the apex, etc.


I appreciate all the info! SCCA members are always helpful but it's good to hear it from people who have "Been there,Done That" in the same car I'm driving.

i think the Skunk2 coilovers are around 400-450in/lbs front, 300-350in/lbs rear which isnt bad. i figure ur car probably understeers quitea bit tho. could shoot for some high spring rates in the rear which will cause ur car to oversteer.

best bet will be to do a novice school. its incredible how much knowledge u'll walk away with and how much of an improvement it makes.

ORIGINAL: keithisjonesn

-I have the yellow adjustable Koni Sports Shocks. They have adjustable rings around the shock depending on suspension setup. I have raised the rear ring up to put the coilover perch higher and allow the shock more travel. The Front shock I left in the middle(stock setting).



that's not what "adjustable" means!
you can adjust the amount of rebound in the shocks, by twisting on the top of the shock using the white knob that you get when you buy them...

Yes I'm aware of the white knob to change my firmness or "rebound" as noted in my original post. I just added the info about the ring placement because I left it out of my first post.

Maybe going back to springs and getting rid of the coilovers might be a step in the right direction. Increasing the rear spring rate because YES the car does love to understeer.

take off the front sway and see what happens...it's just an idea for helping you play with setup without spending any money.... it should make you understeer less.

Taking OFF the front sway bar. That's the first I've heard of doing that but won't that increase body roll?

I raised my car up about an inch all around. Mainly to get the front higher off the ground and see if I can get a better response from the shocks/coilovers.

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Read the stickies in this forum and the suspension forum.

I think your front swaybar is smaller than stock. That's good. You need a bigger rear bar though. Have you had an alignment lately?

Even after 7 events you will still need lots more practice to beat the experienced drivers. And better tires!

The front swaybar is bigger than stock and the rear is a 19mm. And yes to the alignment. And I totally agree with you on the better tires. Any suggestions on a tire that is street/track? How about BFs G-Force T/A's?

you don't want a bigger front bar, you want a bigger rear bar.

Falken Azenis are going to be the best tires to start with. But they will never be competitive in a class where others can run 275 wide Hoosiers [8D]

That's the way it is. The rear bar is 19mm and the front bar is much smaller but I might try removing it, but after I try running with higher air pressures and my new ride height. I'm just afraid that body roll will increase if I remove the front sway bar.

ORIGINAL: keithisjonesn

That's the way it is. The rear bar is 19mm and the front bar is much smaller


??? you already said the front bar was bigger than stock, and stock is like 24mm or so.
just disconnect one end and see if it changes things. you don't have to totally remove it.
if you are still getting body roll, you need stiffer springs.

you will get more body roll obviously by removing the bar, but it will help correct your imbalanced understeer.

Ah ha! Got ya. Will do that.