Audio/Visual & Electronics - New System, Now Motor Whine

Well i just put together my system this weekend and all went pretty well.

The only issue im having is that now i have motor whine coming through the speakers.

I had some music before and this was not an issue but with the new setup i seem to have this issue.

I did run the 4ga power wire on the passenger side with the RCA's which is not the best but since i didn't have a problem in the past i didn't think this would be an issue.

So from asking a few bud's for mine, they seem to think that it may be the head unit Ground. This was not changed this weekend and when i installed the radio the first time i didn't use the stock wiring harness for ground and made a new ground in the radio chassis area with a self tapping screw.

So my question is what do you think is the cause of this issue? I figured i would try a new HU ground since that is the easiest thing to test first. The ground for the rest of the setup is the middle seat belt bracket, i have a 4ga ground with a gold terminal and i sanded the area down to bare metal before i screwed the bold back into place.

Here is a pic of the amp rack with the common ground in place. It the 2 port one toward the top of the amp rack to the left of the crossover.

http://obi1kanobi.com/Images/Car/Amps/All_Mounted_1.jpg

here's a pic of the ground before i painted the board:

http://obi1kanobi.com/Images/Car/Amps/Ground.jpg

I need to take pictures of how its setup but i was mad tired on Saturday and had the camera but was so into wiring stuff i never stopped to take pics.

Please let me know what you think the issue is.

Running your RCAs next to your power leads will definately pick up that alternator whine. Are those at least twisted pair cables going back to the crossovers?

Running your RCAs next to your power leads will definately pick up that alternator whine. Are those at least twisted pair cables going back to the crossovers?

The ones in that pic are not the ones actually being used these are the cables that im using for all RCA's in this setup:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=102&cp_id=10218&cs_id=1021803&p_id=5348&seq=1&format=2

here is a pic of them

http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/28661.jpg

try 2 of these on the rcas before your 3way crossover..... http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/PAC-SNI-1-Ground-Loop-Isolator-RCA-Noise-Filter_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ72Q3a1205Q7c66Q 3a2Q7c65Q3a12Q7c39Q3a1Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a1Q7c29 3Q3a1Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZi tem1c078ef18eQQitemZ120385892750QQptZCarQ5fAudioQ5 fVideo

if that doesnt work try it before the amplifier.

Hrm ok that looks pretty interesting. Ill see if the radio ground doesn't help if so ill have to order a set of these and hope for the best.

ya i predict it might help a little bit but not completely...

and if it only whines with the radio you can try a antena filter also...
http://www.pac-audio.com/products/productsCatagory.asp?mmSearch=Noise%20Filters#ani-33

Thats funny cause one of my buddies asked me if my Antenna was plugged in correctly as he had an issue once with a similar issue with his antenna.

I guess ill try to make sure everything is hooked up correctly this weekend and if that doesn't pan out well ill order these filters and hope for the best.

Thanks for the advice and links..

you should also run either the power or the RCA's on the other side of the car the only acceptable way for them to cross is on a 90degree angle otherwise you will pick up some noise noticeable or not there will be some

you should also run either the power or the RCA's on the other side of the car the only acceptable way for them to cross is on a 90degree angle otherwise you will pick up some noise noticeable or not there will be some

Yeah i tried to bring the RCA's up the middle of the car but that didn't work out to well. Since it was raining off and on i just ran them up the passenger side since I had it all open already.

I may just try to re run them down the drivers side this weekend if the weather is nice to me. I might as well try that as its free and if that still doesn't work then ill get the ground loop suppressors as Addition recommended.

Running your RCAs next to your power leads will definately pick up that alternator whine.

you should also run either the power or the RCA's on the other side of the car the only acceptable way for them to cross is on a 90degree angle otherwise you will pick up some noise noticeable or not there will be some

If this is indeed the case, what about running your RCAs next to the sheet metal in a unibody car? Technically every piece of sheet metal in that car is one, huge, conducting ground.

ETA: For the OP.... What have you done to track down the source of your noise? Did you unplug your RCAs from the head unit to the crossover? After doing so, then test for noise. What about unplugging the RCAs from your crossover to the amps and testing for noise? Until you track down the source of your noise, you are just going to be spinning your wheels.

ETA2: If you have a Pioneer Head unit, you could have blown the Pico fuse on it. If you hot swap RCAs with the radio on, it is guaranteed to blow on you. Heck, I have seen it pop in some instances where an amplifier was swapped out with everything turned off in the vehicle. Regardless, if you blew that pico fuse, you will get noise and it is real common with Pioneer head units :(

ETA3: Here is a link for the Pico fuse fix: http://www.caraudio.com/forum/showthread.php?t=337644&highlight=pico+fuse+fix

Gunz:

I have not done any testing as of yet but will start by pulling the head unit and eliminating things like the crossover to see if that helps.

I could do this mod as well which seems to be the same as buying those ground loop things that Addiction linked to.

Guys:

Does anyone know where i can get an antenna cable extender? Mine barley reaches the right side of the radio and i would like to get an extender to make sure its seating correctly.

Edit i suck lol:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_12044EC18/Motorola-Antenna-Cable.html?search=antenna+extension

you can also get one from autozone ;)

Unplug the RCA's from the head unit and turn the amps on.

Is the whine gone? If so, it's likely a ground loop and/or the head unit.

Like Gunz said, if it's a Pioneer it's a common issue. With the HU on and RCA's connected, try touching a piece of wire from a ground to the outside conductors of the RCA's and see if the whine goes away.

Yeah im def going to try these methods ot this weekend as long as its not raining on me.

I hear you on the pioneer thing but ive had this head unit when i had my old setup but didn't have this issue. I guess it could have went while i was testing and stuff cause i did unplug the RCA's with the radio on, volume on 0, but still on.

Ill try to rule out each part oneat a time and go from there, Addiction thanks for the auto zone tip, hopefully they have them when i go this weekend cause i really need one of these and forgot about it when i gathered up all of my stereo stuff.

I'm an Electrical Engineer, I'm a certified installation technician, and I used to build competition (IASCA)car stereos back in the early to mid 90's when I was in college, and after I did it for friends.

#1 Running adequate power cable AND ground cable to the rear of the vehicle. In most cases #4 AWG for both power and ground will suffice. In much higher power applications - 2000+ Watts you need to size this according to your current draw. Current = Watts / Volts (I=P/E) once you know your current you can select the proper conductor. In many cases the addition of capacitors is necessary for peak current draw in high power systems.

#4 = 75 amps
1/0 = 150 amps

When you run your ground you land it in the rear of the vehicle, grind off the paint and use a 1/4-20 bolt and bolt the ground back here. Run a equal size conductor from this point to a ground distribution block (GDB) - the same way you distribute your power you need to distribute your ground. I can't tell you how important grounding your system is, this is the #1 mistake both amateurs and even installers make.

#2 You run your power and ground down the same side of the vehicle your battery is on. You run your speaker wires and RCA's down the OPPOSITE side of the car. NOT an option, you absolutely, positvely, need to do it this way.

Every component in your system has a current draw that is in the tech spec's... ensure you are grounding all of these components to your GDB with the same size conductor that powers the unit.

#3 run a seperate 14AWG ground wire down the same side of the vehicle with your power and ground from the head unit. This ensures a common ground and a solid ground - avoiding ground loops.

Doing all these steps you should not have ground noise on any system.

Gregg08_CES:

Nice break down man, here is what i have done and not:

#1: 4AWG for both power and ground. Ground is bolted in and area around ground sanded to bare metal before bolted back into place.

#2: Not done correctly, power and RCA's and Speaker wires all on right side. Power and ground wires do match though as both amps have 8AWG cables and the Crossover has i think 20AWG, not really sure but its the same exact cable for power, ground and Remote so its def a match.

#3: Not done, Head unit Grounded up front using a self tapping screw in the bare metal frame of the radio and front dash

Im going to start with the simple stuff like making sure my radio antenna is plugged in well and there are no loose connections.

If this doesn't work ill need to redo some wiring which will really not be fun at all but if it needs to be done ill go ahead and do it.

Weather is not looking good for this weekend but im hoping to spend some time working on it on Sunday if i can, if not next weekend will be when i have a chance to look at it.

Thanks for the advice guys, i hope i can get this fixed soon as its really annoying lol..

#2 You run your power and ground down the same side of the vehicle your battery is on. You run your speaker wires and RCA's down the OPPOSITE side of the car. NOT an option, you absolutely, positvely, need to do it this way.

Just exactly how much current has to be flowing through the power wire to induce noise into the RCAs? What happens when the power/ground happen to cross the RCAs near the amplifier connections? Honestly, I would like to know how much current it would take to introduce noise into RCAs that are generally shielded, twisted, set of wires. Also, since music is dynamic in nature, what are the possibilities of power induced noise at lower volume levels?

The reason I am asking is due to the fact that I have had systems "professionally" installed in the past where the "professional" loomed and zip tied my RCAs with the power cable when running the wire. Guess what, no noise! Granted, there were two runs from the battery to the amps... One going to a 250 watt RMS amp for my subs and one going to the 4 channel, 240 watt rms amp for my mids/highs.

Fast forward to now.... I do my own installs and usually try to keep the RCAs and power cable as far apart as the vehicle/install will allow, but sometimes there is no choice but to run them close together.

First of all there are probably 10 bad "professional" installers for every 1 good one. That being said, word of mouth is important. Find out which shops near you have cars that have actually competed and won, this is a good starting point. I can't tell you how many spaghetti messes came into my shop that I had to repair from "professional" installations.

Next, you never, never, never, ever run power wire with signal wires. Did I say never? I meant to say NEVER. This is simply put, a basic practice which has been around as long as electronics with communication have been around.

In either electrical circuits, power creates a magnetic field around its conductors, this field wrecks havoc on signal wires which are low voltage/low current signals. The result is noise, whether you hear it through an amplifier or see it on an oscilloscope.

If you have to cross power wires you try to do it at right angles or perpendicular to the power, never in parallel to the power. If you have no choice you simply try to limit this distance of contact as much as possible.

Obviously the more current you draw, the magnetic field increases and the affects are greater in terms of noise. Additional factors play into how much of an affect this field has or its tendancy to exist in the frst place. Amplifiers running power from copper conductors continuously changine there RMS current are the most susceptible. A great example of this is your amp running your subs, if you watched your current demand to your amp, every time you try to play 40Hz, you would see the current increase, then decrese again and keep going back and forth.

This is a target rich environment for eddy currents (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_currents) to be created which result in the magnetic field which distorts your signal. IE: Signal to noise ratio... (I'm sure you have heard of this.) There is no answer to "how much current causes this noise". There are certainly other variables to consider, like shielded RCA cables being one of them which certainly help, as opposed to $5 radio shack cables.

Hope this helps.

To the OP, if your speakers and RCA are ran right along side your power I'd bet my left nut that this is your problem, it sure won't be the antenna connection...

I still bet he popped the Pico fuse in his HU :D

ETA: Next on my "to buy" list is to get a handheld oscilloscope. I am tired of dragging out an 80s era Sencore to the car every time I want to test something.

I'm betting he popped the pico fuse too.

I had the same issue with my Pioneer DEH-P6600 I spent months trying to figure out where the heck my engine noise was coming from. Checked the RCA's, never suspected them though because they're the best Rockford Fosgate ones. 2 gauge power wire running on the opposite side. I finally disconnected my speaker amp. Then a few months later the subs started acting up. Every time the stereo was on they would make a bassy pulsy noise, more so with the car on. With the car on was ridiculously loud, like BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! in the time frame of about a second. I'm not sure why it randomly happened when I'm pretty sure it was already blown, but it did. It also detected EVERY little electrical surge. You roll down the window, it boomed. You turn on the headlights, it boomed. REALLY annoying.

So I finally ordered a new headunit, a Pioneer DEH-P510UB. THEN of course I figure out what the problem is with my unit. Its fixed now, and I'm getting a nice upgrade in a few days =) I also hooked the 4 channel back up, and it works perfectly again.

Pretty much a blown pico fuse screws up the grounds to the RCA's. To test it, strip a few inches of wire, there should be two screws on the back of your unit next to the RCA's. Unscrew those, wrap a wire around one, wrap the RCA's in the wire, then screw down the other end. This should eliminate or drastically reduce the engine noise if this is the problem. To fix it, you need to take it apart and pretty much solder in a resistor in place of the pico fuse. Then remember to never take your RCA's out while the stereo is on. I'm going to be pulling the harness out every time I mess with my new stereo.

Yeah i think i blew that fuse as well since i did unplug the RCA's with the unit on which i normally don't ever do.

I guess i should just grab some extra wire and do like you guys are saying when i replace the antenna line.

Its wack that this fuse is like all in the radio and cant simply be replaced since it seems to go alot.

That is the one thing that keeps me from getting a Pioneer DEH800PRS... The Pico fuse issue. The other thing I don't like is the motorized face.

There is a long story involving a 6 hour drive with me listening to either the same CD or FM radio due to a motorized face that wouldn't fold down (i.e. the CDX C90 "no eject" issue).

ETA: I believe you can solder a resistor across where the fuse is.... but I can't recall the value of the resistor.

just dont buy pioneer. LOL
i like my alpines.

I still can't decide between the Alpine CDA-9887 and the Eclipse CD7200mkii

o eclipse also good brand!
my preferences are
eclipse 1
alpine 2
clarion 3rd

never owned a eclipse tho but ive heard great things from them a slong as you dont buy the cheapie models ;)
ive had my alpines for about 2years and love them both! and i had a nice clarion for about 3years. i really liked that radio but i think it had some rca problems and it was old. so now i just use it in my dads work truck since his stock radio smoked!

Yeah i think i blew that fuse as well since i did unplug the RCA's with the unit on which i normally don't ever do.

I guess i should just grab some extra wire and do like you guys are saying when i replace the antenna line.

Its wack that this fuse is like all in the radio and cant simply be replaced since it seems to go alot.

Eh, technically it only happens when you hot swap the RCA's. And if you know that can happen, are you ever going to go it again? I sure as hell hope not. The fuse is also smaller than a grain of rice, so forwarning if you try to put a resistor in its place, its going to be a pain.

Eh, technically it only happens when you hot swap the RCA's. And if you know that can happen, are you ever going to go it again? I sure as hell hope not. The fuse is also smaller than a grain of rice, so forwarning if you try to put a resistor in its place, its going to be a pain.

nah my soldering skills are the suck and i would never try that. I just hope i can pull of the mod with the wires on the RCA's and have it fix my issue if its not the antenna.

It fixed about 90% of the engine noise for me. My soldering iron died a long time ago so I had to drive to my boyfriend's house to use his. Plus I wanted to see exactly how well it fixed it. Only at high RPMs did I hear any noise. Soldering across fixed it entirely.

I have pictures on my camera of the quick fix if you'd like them. I figured out a nice wrapping technique. I also found a picture while researching the pico fuse issue where a guy soldered bare wire all the way across the fuse contacts to the RCA contacts on the circuit board, that would be a lot easier to do. Not proper, but it should fix the noise.