Why the conventional VTEC sucks.

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Why the conventional VTEC sucks.

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Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 4:26:33 PM

VVTIFTW

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline

Comparing VTEC to systems like VVT-i/Vanos, or Dual VVT-i/Double-Vanos, Porche's Variocam, VTAK in the rearview mirror, IMHO. Conventional VTEC, or d-VTEC ('d' for Dumb) enables the engine to produce more power at HIGH RPM. It's kind of like a turbo lag effect, but a lot worse. When this seperate cam is not in use? Well, the engine is pretty much dead seeing that they use a cam that's more directed towards "economy" and "torque" namely, even though the torque is still not evident.

Let's just say that VTEC is a much better highway car, AND only a highway car. i-VTEC addresses this problem, but it's still flawed. VTEC doesn't sense enthusiastic driving until "VTEC kicks in". VVT-i SENSES your lead foot, and acts accordingly.

Toyota engine will always have more torque due to VVT, VVT-i, Dual VVT-i, and VVTL-i techologies, respectively. Honda engines will always have slightly more power, BUT you have the rev the hell out of them to get that power. Think of it as 2 engines in 1. Before VTEC, a conventional VTEC car is a dog. LMAO

What else is wrong? VTEC ENGINES MAKE NO TORQUE! So they feel slower. Like I said, you need a friggin lead foot to activate it (with some waiting involved), where as I'll take VVT-i anytime.

VTEC also uses an abundance of oil, much more than you'll ever see in a VVT-i motor. Conventional VTEC uses this oil PRIMARILY to activate the solenoids; VVTi has a much more efficient use of this oil, for not just power, but torque, engine speed, uphill/downhill and the like.

Better overall power? VVT-i.

Better fuel economy? VVT-i

Smarter (duh)? VVT-i

Wider band of torque? VVT-i

Smoothness of engine? VVT-i

More advanced? VVT-i

Faster off the line/and in the city? VVT-i

Sounds nicer? VTEC.

Squeeze out every last ounce-of-HP-at-very-very-high-engine-speeds? VTEC.. maybe.

No way would a car equipped with VTEC be able to keep up with a car with VVT-i, with identical characteristics (weight, aerodynamics, gearing, etc) with the SAME HP. i.e. 200hp VVT-i has more useable power than a 200hp VTEC. Where a VTEC, making the SAME power, usually makes it up top. But not much of anything else in between.

As much as I love the kick VTEC gives you, it's inconvenient, and Toyota just has completey outdone Honda. I know there is DOHC VTEC, SOHC VTEC, VTEC-e, i-VTEC, and soon a 2-stage VTEC and so many other variables that VVT-i has just outright beaten. VTEC was a great step in the feat of engineering but it was a way to add more power without adding more cylinders. I mean, even i-VTEC SUCKS the gas. That's why they have VTEC-e, because VTEC by itself just wasn't good enough.

The main problem with VTEC is that it acts like a switch, where it's infinitely variable on VVT-i.

And a problem with i-VTEC is that it still HAS VTEC, and VTEC sucks oil/gas, literally.

Post #: 1

RE: Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 4:46:19 PM

ef4life

Posts: 2664
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline

and still no one cares. and i like my vtec engine, but the point is i don't want a toyota nor will i ever. i realize toyota engine are smoother, but i just love vtec. how many vvti toyota vibe or celicas do you see running a turbo and over 300 whp? i never seen one, but i know a few honda guys that all have single cams that do. and jeff evans made 374 whp on a STOCK d16z6 with a turbo setup and his crazy sweet neptune. i am sorry but toyota may have a slightly better system but the honda is way more enthusiast friendly.

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RE: Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 5:15:40 PM

uk civhead

Posts: 912
Joined: 4/21/2005
Status: offline

Im wondering VVTIFTW if you have seen the video filmed in Japan of a race including a stock Celica vvti 190 vs a stock EK9 CTR. The celica has the bigger engine, makes slightly more horse power, and is more aerodynamic. yet it gets easily overtaken by the civic on an UPHILL section of track. Im sure if you search google video you can see it get its ass whipped on the straight and even more so on the bends. Also the comments made about billing two cars with identical characteristics etc etc, well unfortunately that will never happen as Toyota will never be able to produce a car with a 2.0L N/A 240hp engine in the near future, and certainly not one that handles as well....Sorry to break that to you. Oh and dont come back shooting the torque gun cos it just dont wash.

< Message edited by uk civhead -- 9/21/2006 5:17:03 PM >

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RE: Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 5:17:44 PM

mybrokenblinker

Posts: 2342
Joined: 8/28/2006
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Umm...just letting you know...if you are doing really "spirited" driving, you shift at nearly red line. And, at least on my car, I stay withing like 500 rpm of vtec at every shift.(while under hard acceleration). Oh and also, my engine only takes about 2.5 quarts of oil, and i check the oil frequently and never have to add between changes. Just so you know...i dont know enough about the technology to reply to the other stuff.

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Post #: 4

RE: Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 5:18:01 PM

VVTIFTW

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline

...

OK? And where does turbocharging come into play?

But if you want to go there, I've seen 400+ whp setups on stock internals on Korean cars! What's your point? If I wanted extreme power, I'd buy a Viper or a Vette; not a d16 Civic.

I never disagreed with the fact that Honda wins with most hp/L. Who cares? It's the very engineering that is flawed and lots of car manufacturers would never buy. "There is no replacement for displacement."

IMHO, supercharging and turbocharging is a perversion of power. If you want MORE power, build a bigger engine.

There's an article somewhere about where Ferrari engineers where giving their reasons as to why they chose to stay away from a variable valve timing LIFT system, like the unique VTEC. VTEC engines power delivery never FEELS as powerful as those engines without it! Ferrari drivers would probably sue the company out of spite.

The power increase with increased revs will always seem less compared to a linear power curve that doesn't rev as much. Look at how much more Honda engines rev than Toyota's. Don't you think there's a reason for that?

When what's-his-face in the other thread stated that he would take a steep torque curve any day over the flat torque curve, I bet he'd never like a Ferrari. Steep torque curves are the very thing that makes cars feel slow when they're not supposed to be.

You like your VTEC engine? Why? WHY do you like it? Because your car doesnt give you power until VTEC kicks in? Oh.. that's wonderful.

VTEC creates a lot more wear and tear on the drivetrain then a VVT-i system, which means it's not as reliable long-term. They need to figure out how to make a smoother transition and make a system that is effective from idle to redline, not just from when VTEC kicks in to redline.

(in reply to ef4life)

Post #: 5

RE: Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 5:21:46 PM

VVTIFTW

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: uk civhead
Toyota will never be able to produce a car with a 2.0L N/A 240hp engine in the near future, and certainly not one that handles as well....

If you read anything stated above, I even mentioned that Honda's will never have the torque of a Toyota, and Toyota will never have the peak HP that Honda does. But it's not Toyotas goal.

ROFL, that's plain ignorant mang. Drive a Toyota MR2 Turbo, or a MR2 Spyder with the 1zzfe that weighs in at 2,195lbs, mid-engined, RWD car and you tell me that Toyota hasn't produced a car that can handle better and is lighter than anything Honda has ever produced.

This is about why your VTEC sucks, not hp/L.

quote:

Umm...just letting you know...if you are doing really "spirited" driving, you shift at nearly red line. And, at least on my car, I stay withing like 500 rpm of vtec at every shift.(while under hard acceleration). Oh and also, my engine only takes about 2.5 quarts of oil, and i check the oil frequently and never have to add between changes. Just so you know...i dont know enough about the technology to reply to the other stuff.

Oops, missed this tid bit.

[sarcasm]Oh really? I didn't know that spirited driving is when you shift near redline! Pfft.[/sarcasm]

Everytime VTEC kicks in, your gas mileage lessens, your valvetrain weakens, and you hardly gain any power. "Spirited" driving is a whole lot more than straightaways, but going through twisties, uphill, downhill, and taking off at a light.

Just know that your Civic doesn't sense when you stomp on it. Your ECU doesn't do anything about the change in acceleration until the VTEC system "kicks in" at HIGH RPM, and there is no system varying the valve timing at all until that point. Where other intelligent variable valve timing systems are already giving you optimum performance from the moment you floor the pedal.

< Message edited by VVTIFTW -- 9/21/2006 5:28:24 PM >

(in reply to uk civhead)

Post #: 6

RE: Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 5:26:09 PM

civicex96

Posts: 210
Joined: 6/15/2006
Status: offline

To each their own. I'm happy that you are happy with you car. I'm also happy with mine.

All I have to say is that any Civic will retain their value better than any Corolla. And any Honda will retain their value better than any Toyota? You know why? If not, go and figure it out. It must be for a reason, right???

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Post #: 7

RE: Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 5:31:47 PM

VVTIFTW

Posts: 15
Joined: 9/20/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: civicex96

To each their own. I'm happy that you are happy with you car. I'm also happy with mine.

All I have to say is that any Civic will retain their value better than any Corolla. And any Honda will retain their value better than any Toyota? You know why? If not, go and figure it out. It must be for a reason, right???

Do you want a cookie?

Read the topic title.

Your forums are filled with such spam it makes me sick, and topics that actually require some THINKING like this one are locked by your moderators just because others find it offensive that I'm flaming such an ancient technology to today's standards.

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Post #: 8

RE: Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 5:34:45 PM

uk civhead

Posts: 912
Joined: 4/21/2005
Status: offline

The orignal turbo MR2 was a great car and handled very well and do you know why it handles so well?? because its chassis wasnt designed by Toyota, its was designed by Lotus, so credit them not toyota.
And the new MR2 is an underpowered poofs car that should of been so much better considering its predecessor. Hardly hailed as much as the more sucessful and superior S2000 now is it?

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CAI
Skunk2 I/M
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megan strut brace
17"Wolfrace katana's
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Post #: 9

RE: Why the conventional VTEC sucks. - 9/21/2006 5:42:29 PM

mybrokenblinker

Posts: 2342
Joined: 8/28/2006
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yeah wiht regards to finding a honda with better handling, HAVE YOU DRIVEN AN S2000? One of the best handlin cars ever made under 50k. Oh and by spirited driving i meant that, you stay in the high rpms that vtec is active in, so you pretty much always have the vtec working. No need to get rude buddy, take a chill pill. And if you want to talk trash to everyone, go to some toyota corolla fan club where you can post and everyone will agree with you.

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Post #: 10