View Full Version : Nitrous FAQ Updated 2/25/08


Mr Mobsta Man
07-24-2007, 03:58 PM
I noticed that this site does not have very much information in the way of nitrous. Most of the members are primarily interested in turbochargers so I wanted to write a quick FAQ of what I know about nitrous since I am pursuing this as my route of forced introduction. I still do not have any real first hand experience with this it is just all I have learned through researching so hopefully some of the members who actually have used it can help full in the blanks. (I know at least 2 or 3 members who have been running nitrous)

1. What is nitrous oxide and how is it used to make an engine faster?
Nitrous oxide is normally a gas made of of 2 nitrogen molecules and 1 oxygen molecule. When it is inside the bottle it is in liquid form but once it is injected into the engine it is heated to several hundred degrees which in turn makes it a gas and breaks it down into the nitrogen and oxygen molecules so it is then able to react with the enrichment fuel to make power. It is used as extra oxygen to allow more fuel to be burnt and it also lowers the intake temperate resulting in more power. Nitrous has gotten a bad rap because of new tuners trying it without knowing much about it and blowing their engines but if used correctly then it can be just as reliable as any other form of forced introduction. I would also like to point out that nitrous is commonly miscalled NOS, NOS is a company that makes nitrous kits. You shouldn't refer to nitrous as NOS unless your talking about the company or their kits.

2. What are they ways are getting nitrous into the engine?
It is injected into the engine via either the intake tube or the intake manifold. There are three different types of systems. Dry, Wet, and Direct Port.
-Dry kits only inject nitrous into the intake, a hole is drilled into the intake tube (The short ram intake, cold air intake, or stock air box tube) and then the nozzle is inserted into the tube and faced toward the intake manifold. It has to be placed before the MAF sensor so the stock ecu "senses" that the incoming air is colder and therefor adds more fuel to compensate. These are the least precise and controversially dangerous. They work best on cars with intake manifolds that have weird angles in them that if you use a wet kit the fuel will not stay atomized well enough and might cause detonation.
-Wet kits inject both nitrous and fuel into the engine at the same place as the dry kit (into the intake tube) It works the same way except the engine does not add more fuel by itself because the nozzle already adds the fuel.
-Direct port kits. These are the most precise (and expensive) kits. They also allow the most power to be gained. For civics it is 200hp, but you need a build engine to run anything higher than 75hp. (more on that later in the writeup. For 4 cylinders these kits have 4 nozzles, one for each intake runner of the intake manifold. These are also considered wet kits.

The major company's who make nitrous kits would be Nitrous Oxide Systems (NOS, first company to make nitrous kits but now has a different owner, theywere bought byHolly), Nitrous Express, ZEX, Venom, Elderbrock, and Nitrous Works.

3. What is a "Shot"?
A shot is simply how much hp you get from the nitrous at a time. Shots range from 35hp to over 300hp depending on application. On our civics it is safe to run a 35-55 shot on a stock engine. If the engine is strong and you are brave then you might be able to push it to a 75 shot on a stock engine. From about a 75 shot and more you might need to get a stronger clutch to handle the extra torque. 100 shots will require stronger connecting rods, pistons, and fuel pump. If you are going to do this then you will benefit from high compression pistons as opposed to turbocharges cars that benefit from lower compression pistons. You might also need to get something to control your nitrous so that it does notspray in first gear because with that much power you will just be spinning your tires without actually moving very far or you could get a two stage nitrous system.

4. What is recommended to be done before using nitrous oxide?
Before you do anything, get a compression tester and make sure your engine is in good shape. Also make sure you are not burning oil. If your engine is burning too much oil then it can lead to detonation and a blown engine. Intake, Header, Exhaust would be best to get the most out of your kit. There are also camshafts designed specifically for nitrous setups which are also an option but they will hurt performance of an n/a engine while you are not using the nitrous, so I would not recommend them unless you only use your car for the track and not as a daily driver.
You will need some way of retarding you timing. How much timing is pulled will depend on how big of a shot you run. Most company's come with instructions on how to install the kit and it will also tell you how much ignition retard you need for each shot. (ex. with zex's direct port kit for a 4cyl EFI, a 50 shot needs a ign retard of 2 degrees, 75 shot needs 4 degrees, and so on)
You need spark plugs that are at least 2 ranges colder than your stock plugs. You could either buy ZEX's turbo/supercharger/nitrous plugs that are pre-gapped or you could take your stock plug to Advance auto parts and tell them you need plugs that are 2 heat ranges colder.
There really are a ton of things you could buy to make your nitrous kit more reliable and to get more power out of it.For gaugesI suggest that you get a nitrous gauge to make sure your bottle pressure is within safe limits (800-1,000psi usually), a fuel pressure gauge, oil pressure gauge, and a wide-band a/f ratio senor gauge. Older cars can benefit from using a MSD ignition system because their stock ignitions are no longer strong enough to keep a good spark to get good power out of the nitrous kit.

Some more good things to have would be a purge kit, bottle heater, fuel pressure safety switch, safety blow down kit (if your bottle is inside the cabin with the passengers, this is required if you are planning to race at an NHRA track). If you don't want to have to get out of the car and go to the trunk to open your bottle then you can get an automatic bottle opener also.

Safely features: MSD makes a window switch which is connected to the nitrous and fuel solenoids and only allows you to use your nitrous while you are above a set rpm and below another. This is useful because it is unsafe to use nitrous below 2,500rpm because the intake air is not moving fast enough to suck the nitrous and fuel into the engine and it can cause an intake backfire. It also can be set to not spray nitrous above your rev limit because the stock rev limiter cuts fuel and that will cause the engine to go lean and might cause the engine to blow up. (throw a rod) If you are going to convert to OBD1 and use a chipped ecu then have your tuner make the rev limiter cut spark instead of fuel to be safe.

Finally, before you start spraying do general maintenance. Replace spark plug wires, spark plugs, fuel filter. Do not assume that your timing is set right. Get a timing light and set it correctly or you might regret it later. If you don't know how to set your timing then either have a mechanic do it or the timing lights come with instructions.

5. BestEngine Management?
Although you do not need any big form of engine management it is always a good idea. If your car was made from 1996 or later then you could get a obd2->OBD1 conversion harness and run an OBD1 chipped ecu then take your car to a tuner. This way the ecu can be made to control timing

johnny
07-24-2007, 04:35 PM
Nice FAQ, there isn't much on NOS here. Good job! STICKY :)

SovXietday
07-24-2007, 05:52 PM
Good stuff.:)

johnb
07-24-2007, 06:23 PM
thanks bro, i learned a lot of new stuff now lol

my05civic
07-26-2007, 09:16 AM
nice write up http://www.hondacivicforum.com/micons/m6.gif

FlipHKD720
07-26-2007, 09:30 AM
woowoooo :)good info here Mobsta, come on Mods/Admins, sticky?

mahlum
08-23-2007, 12:16 AM
Bump. Sticky. Good Information.

Roadkillboy0
08-23-2007, 06:21 AM
yeah wow thanks for that. i learned some new things there

packman5280
08-23-2007, 02:20 PM
good post, but nitrous isn't forced induction, it's just an oxidizing agent. turbo and supercharger are FI, not nitrous.

Mr Mobsta Man
08-23-2007, 07:05 PM
Well it isn't n/a either so unless you want to just make it's own little catagory I just say f/i.

ryank327
08-23-2007, 08:13 PM
Forced induction is anything that adds oxygen to the combustion cycle. Nitrous does this therefore it is considered forced induction.

packman5280
08-24-2007, 02:17 PM
well, some have their doubts about wikipedia, but this is from their site "A Nitrous Oxide system is not a form of forced induction. It's simply an oxidizer that is injected either directly (direct port) or by a single fogger...with fuel(wet nitrous system) or without fuel(dry nitrous system)."

regardless, when someone says forced induction, it means boost, which is the state of greater than atmospheric pressure in your intake, which does not occur with nitrous. true, with notrous you are putting in more oxygen, but there is more oxygen because the molecules are denser, not because it is under pressure.

ryank327
08-24-2007, 05:21 PM
Putting a gas under more pressure is condensing it. Therefore making it more dense. Just because the density is changed via a different method doesn't make it any different. Whether you add more atmospheric air or add a gas rich in oxygen they both increase the density of oxygen in the combustion area. It doesn't matter if you get that extra oxygen from a tank, supercharger, turbocharger or whatever, adding oxygen to the combustion area is forced induction.

Mr Mobsta Man
08-24-2007, 09:11 PM
ORIGINAL: packman5280

well, some have their doubts about wikipedia, but this is from their site "A Nitrous Oxide system is not a form of forced induction. It's simply an oxidizer that is injected either directly (direct port) or by a single fogger...with fuel(wet nitrous system) or without fuel(dry nitrous system)."

regardless, when someone says forced induction, it means boost, which is the state of greater than atmospheric pressure in your intake, which does not occur with nitrous. true, with notrous you are putting in more oxygen, but there is more oxygen because the molecules are denser, not because it is under pressure.

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone. Don't believe something just because it says so. Forced intro does not mean boost. It means you force something to be introduced, hence the name. It is greater than atmospheric pressure also, the bottles are over 900 psi optimally and once it gets past the solenoids it is around I think 20-40psi so that is higher that atmospheric pressure... When someone says forced introduction you think boost because generally they are talking about a turbo.

SovXietday
08-24-2007, 09:21 PM
Forced induction simply implies that there is more oxygen forced into the engine. Nitrous does just that.

Peg_Leg
08-24-2007, 09:29 PM
nice write up http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k227/Peg_Leghcf/hcf/popcornbig.gif

packman5280
08-24-2007, 09:38 PM
the pressure in the intake does not go up when you spray, and i started off by saying wiki was a questionable source, no need to bold it.

to me, forced means you are forcing more air in. think about it. how does the air/fuel mix get into the cyl on an n/a motor? it is sucked in when the piston moves down. until you add a turbo or SC which force it in. if the air/fuel mix is sucked into the cylinder by the piston, then you aren't forcing it in weather or not there is nitrous involved. it is only forced in when it is pumped in at higher than atmospheric pressure, ie a turbo or SC.

that's my view, sorry to hijack the thread.

ryank327
08-25-2007, 04:15 AM
No no no You're looking at it all wrong. FI has nothing to do with the method of inroduction. It all has to do with increasing the oxygen content inside the combustion chamer, not the intake or anywhere else, just the one place that the power is created . Technically you are forcing the nitrous in because without the setup would that occur naturally? I don't think so.


"Forced Induction" is the process of using a mechanical system to "force" more air into an engine. This includes Superchargers, Turbochargers, Nitrious systems, and other mechanical systems, but not hood scoops which just direct outside air into the engine. Both Superchargers and Turbos use a compressor to "force" air into the engine, making it more dense (i.e. more oxygen). When a proportionately larger amount of fuel is added to the denser air charge, the mixture creates a much larger explosion and thus more power from the engine. Nitrous Oxide Systems ("NOS") works by directly injecting Nitrous Oxide (NO2) into the engine. The higher concentration of oxygen found in NO2 (compared to air) and more fuel leads to the same effect as Superchargers and Turbos. Although the basic concepts are similar, each differs in their design and execution.



As quoted from http://www.musclecarclub.com/library/tech/forced-induction.shtml

packman5280
08-25-2007, 05:06 AM
i guess ford racing is looking at it wrong too
http://www.fordracing.com/glossary/definition/index.asp?glossaryid=45
http://www.fordracing.com/glossary/definition/index.asp?glossaryid=67

and answers.com
http://www.answers.com/topic/forced-induction

and be carefull with this link, NSFW, the next word below forced induction is, well, urban, not urbane.
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=compressor&page=2

packman5280
08-25-2007, 05:16 AM
more from answers.com

The objective of a turbocharger is to improve upon the size-to-output efficiency of an engine by solving for one of its cardinal limitations. A naturally aspirated automobile engine uses only the downward stroke of a piston to create an area of low pressure in order to draw air into the cylinder. Since the number of air and fuel molecules determine the potential energy available to force the piston down on the combustion stroke, and because of the relatively constant pressure of the atmosphere, there ultimately will be a limit to the amount of air and consequently fuel filling the combustion chamber. This ability to fill the cylinder with air is its volumetric efficiency. Since the turbocharger increases the pressure at the point where air is entering the cylinder, and the amount of air brought into the cylinder is largely a function of time and pressure, more air will be drawn in as the pressure increases. Thus, the intake pressure can be controllably increased by the turbocharger.

The application of a compressor to increase pressure at the point of cylinder air intake is often referred to as forced induction. Centrifugal superchargers operate in the same fashion as a turbo; however, the energy to spin the compressor is taken from the rotating output energy of the engine's crankshaft as opposed to exhaust gas. For this reason turbochargers are ideally more efficient, since their turbines are actually heat engines, converting some of the kinetic energy from the exhaust gas that would otherwise be wasted, into useful work. Contrary to popular belief, this is not totally "free energy," as it always creates some amount of exhaust backpressure which the engine must overcome. Superchargers use output energy to achieve a net gain, which is at the expense of some of the engine's total output.

ryank327
08-25-2007, 05:37 PM
Dude first of all I don't know why you're posting stuff about turbocharging. That has nothing to do with nitrous. Second of all your answers.com site says:

"Forced induction is a term used to describe internal combustion engines (http://www.answers.com/topic/internal-combustion-engine) that are not naturally aspirated (http://www.answers.com/topic/naturally-aspirated-engine). Instead, a gas compressor (http://www.answers.com/topic/air-compressor-2) is added to the air intake, thereby increasing the quantity of oxygen available for combustion."

IS an NO2 system not using compressed gas?Yea, just wondering on how that doesn't fit...


Also Urban dictionary I treat that as less credit worthy then wikipedia. You're right Nitrous isn't boost but it is forced induction. Something does not have to be reffered to as boost to be considered forced induction. I'm not gonna have a link war with you cause I know I'm correct and If Nitrous isn't N/A and its not FI then what the hell is it? Are you just gonna create your own little category for it to justify your reasoning? Well congrats I guess you made a new discovery.

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread/2080715

I'm Done here.

Good day.

packman5280
08-26-2007, 07:01 AM
i linked to that answers site to because it made a point, that a forced induction motor has a gas compressor on it. show me a nitrous system, then show me the gas compressor. what? there isn't one? then how exactly is the induction process forced?

i'm not trying to justify my reasoning, plenty of people agree with me. if it is too hard for you to comprehend anything more complicated than "if it isn't NA then it's FI", then fine, refer to nitrous as FI.

Mr Mobsta Man
08-26-2007, 09:29 AM
Packman.... turbos compress air at about 7-20psi normally, nitrous bottles compress the n2o at 900-1100 psi,now how is that not a gas compressor exactly?

packman5280
08-27-2007, 05:41 AM
sorry, but a compressed gas is not a gas compressor. if you can't grasp that concept, then i'm not sure why we're even discussing this. as soon the nitrous is out of the bottle it is no longer compressed, it is not adding 900-1100psi to your intake.

Look, the bottom line is if the air/fuel mix is sucked into the engine, it is not forced induction. unless the air/fuel mix is forced into the engine, it isn't forced induction (hence the term forced). If you want to define the word differently, then so be it. Otherwise, this is a good FAQ for people who don't know what nitrous is, i would just hate for them to think it was FI when it clearly isn't. sorry to hijack the thread, if a mod wants to clean it up since it is a sticky, go for it.

packman5280
08-27-2007, 05:41 AM
double posted, not sure how to delete it

uranium238
08-27-2007, 05:58 AM
oddly, i think both sides of the debate are off-base. nitrous is an oxidizer, it's not N/A or FI. nitrous works exactly like adding some other oxidizer to your gas. (micheal waltrip getting caught with an oxidizer in his gas at daytona comes to mind...) IOW it's neither N/A of FI, it's it's own deal.

if i were to debate what category NO2 fits in, i'd come at it from the fuel side, rather than the air.

maybe i'm nuts, but that's how i've always understood how it works...[/b]

Mr Mobsta Man
08-27-2007, 12:12 PM
^ I am willing to agree that it would be better suited as its own category as an oxidizer but I think that if you have to pick between f/i and n/a then it is f/i because n/a means that it happens naturally and adding nitrous is not something an engine does buy itself.

Packman, I definitely do not want this "cleaned up" although we disagree, this is a forum and we all need to add our own opinions because if only one person gets their say in it then people reading it might be mislead... they need to be able to form their own opinion. You should never take something you hear from one person as a fact.

Uranium, the only thing I think that you cannot debate is that if nitrous is a fuel or air. It is oxygen, not fuel. It helps you burn more fuel just like the air that is already there does. Think about it, it is n2o, meaning 2 nitrogen molecules and 1 oxygen molecule. If nitrous is fuel then why do you add fuel in with it (wet setups) or trick the engine into using the injectors to add the extra fuel (dry).One of thereasons we don't just use pure oxygen instead of nitrous is that the nitrogen also cools down the engine and pure oxygen would not do that.

uranium238
08-27-2007, 12:27 PM
that's because i mis-read the differences between wet and dry systems when i went through this thread earlier, i was under the impression that wet systems were basically special fuel injectors...plus, i'll admit i'm new to nitrous systems.

but i am an engineering student, so believe me, i know it's not a form of fuel, that it is an oxidizer, and that i know what an ozidizer does.

and if i had to put it into either category, i would say it's F/I. it's not really F/I, but it certainly isn't N/A.

Mr Mobsta Man
08-27-2007, 12:32 PM
Whenever you add nitrous into an engine, just like normal air, you need fuel to go with it to make any more power. Wet and dry systems are just two different ways of getting the fuel you need into the engine. Dry systems only inject nitrous and they trick the fuel injectors into adding the extra fuel. Wet systems add the fuel through the same nozzle as the nitrous atomizing the fuel and nitrous together before it gets into the combustion chamber.

ryank327
08-27-2007, 04:40 PM
First of all a Turbocharger/supercharger doesn't force air into an engine. If you were to try to "force" air into an engine you would end up flith valves floating and horrors of this type. All a turbo/SC does is compress theair to make more air available for the engine to suck into the vacuum that is created from the exhaust gases being evacuated after the compression cycle. Naturally the more air that is available the greater quantity that will be sucked in. It does not physically force the air into the engine whatsoever.

Think of it like this. Get a straw, stick it in a ziploc bag and seal it around the straw and suck in. You can only suck in so much right? Now blow the ziploc bag up and suck in, you would be able to suck in more air right? All F/I does is "blow up your bag" If it were to force the air in think of it like someone else blowing in the other end of the straw while you were sucking, you'd end up coughing and all that goos stuff cause you wouldnt be able to handle the extra air. Thats what would happen if you "forced" air into an engine.

Secondly when a turbocharger compresses air does it not increase the oxygen density of the available air to the engine? To go along with this does adding N2O to the intake stream not increase the amount of oxygen in the plenum therefore makingit dense just like the Turbo?

uranium238
08-28-2007, 03:21 AM
but the air that's in "greater quantity" is in the same sized package as the "normal" air. to correct you're "air bag" analogy, the air bag would be pressurized much like your second example, the one you said wouldn't work.

think of it this way. a N/A engine sucks in x many liters of air each stroke. block off the air supply, like in your first example, and of course it won't get any air and won't run. let air flow in naturally, it'll suck x many liters, just like it's supposed to. put a turbo or a supercharge in front, and it'll still suck x liters of air, only this time the air has a higher density because it's pressurized. more air -> more O2.

what makes oxidizers different is that they're not related to air intake to the engine, the work by putting something else other than fuel and air into the engine. whether this is done by a nitrous system or by a fuel addative makes no difference.

in fact, you could quite easily take a normal, N/A engine, not touch anything in the engine compartment, add some sort of magical oxidizer to the gas each time you fill it up, and have the same effects of a turbo, supercharger or nitrous.

packman5280
08-28-2007, 01:00 PM
cool, thanks Mr Mobsta Man, just don't want to start a fight here. It's not my board and I don't come here enough for that.

I agree, it's good to discuss it. I still disagree about the answer, but i see the points being made and they make sense. I tend to equate FI with boost, and if I had to classify it, I would refer to a nitrous setup as N/A with nitrous, but that's just me.

SevenKRedline
01-07-2008, 04:53 PM
Check this video out.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Jej4M9qoWSM

WhiteCivic98
01-08-2008, 11:28 AM
^^ Mad Props to the dude above me! That video had everything I was going to say. Nitrous cools the intake as it converts from a liquid state into a gas state. The idea of nitrous was to introduce more oxygen into the combustion cycle. And it was discovered the Nitrous Oxide gas could be used to do so safely and effectively. The problem with nitrous oxide is that you need alot of it to make any sort of gain. Like for every part of oxygen and fuel mixture you need 1,000,000 or so parts of nitrous oxide. I have to look for the article that states this but it gives a pretty clear idea of it.

Mad props to the author of the thread!

99civicricer
01-25-2008, 02:58 AM
i would have to say nitrous isneitherf/i or n/a because your not forcing the nitrous in theengine is sucking it in but you are forcing itto make power that itcant make on its own. so if youhave n2o hooked up you could still say your n/a until you spray.

Mr Mobsta Man
01-25-2008, 05:47 PM
ORIGINAL: WhiteCivic98

The problem with nitrous oxide is that you need alot of it to make any sort of gain. Like for every part of oxygen and fuel mixture you need 1,000,000 or so parts of nitrous oxide. I have to look for the article that states this but it gives a pretty clear idea of it.

Sorry but that is wrong. The ratio for nitrous to fuel is around 7 to 1 to about 5 to 1 depending on your application so you need less nitrous than you would normal oxygen with gasoline.

WhiteCivic98
02-26-2008, 07:56 AM
sorry dude butdo you have ANY proof, scientific or otherwise,to back what you are saying?

Mr Mobsta Man
02-26-2008, 12:09 PM
Well I got that number from the book "Sport Compact Nitrous Injection" by Joe Pettitt, S.A. Design. I could post a picture of the pages but I am fairly sure that is illegal. Since I can't do that I can just say that think about it, how do you think you could fit "1,000,000 or so parts of nitrous oxide" into the engine at normal atmospheric pressure and fit enough to make more power? You do realize that instead of the normal air/fuel ratio which is normally 12-13 to 1 at WOT with your math it would be 2,000,000 to 1? (nitrous is 2molecules oxygen, 1molecule nitrogen so one "part" (you mean molecule I assume) is equivalent to 2 "parts" oxygen.)

Now where is your proof, scientific or otherwise, to prove your theory. I don'tintend to sound mean if I come off that way, I do actually like these debates so please don't get angry.

Adamsdustin02
02-27-2008, 05:47 AM
Well I do not mean to get into the middle of a fight hear and sound stupid but I have some questions. I have a 98 non-v. civic with an intake and will be geting a new set of heads soon I was just wondering if that would be good enough on that car for nitrous. I do plan on getting some updated plugs doing a tune up and a compr. test but after all this should I be good for just a little 50 shot of gas?

Mr Mobsta Man
02-27-2008, 12:34 PM
Set of heads? You only need one... and yes, assuming that your car does not burn excess amounts of oil and passes a compression test you should be fine running a 50 shot. You might not even need colder plugs for a 50 shot, the only thing I would do would be some maintenance like a new fuel filter, spark plug wires, plugs then you should be golden.

Gonzo
03-05-2008, 07:43 PM
I had no idea they could inject into intakes... Weird.