Am I getting ripped off?
#1
02-25-2009, 03:21 PM
Am I getting ripped off?
I have a 1995 Civic EX that was purchased in Dec 2007 at 116K miles. It's considered salvage since the cost to repair it was more than the value of the car. The rear quarter panel was replaced according to the body shop owner I purchased it from. It was damaged while parked.
Since it was used, I decided to have the timing belt and waterpump replaced. I chose an independent shop that only works on Japanese vehicles and uses OEM parts. As a bonus, they also give me 10% discounts and provide loaner cars. On my first visit in 1/08 the following was found:
1. Car has been in major accident with left rear damage. Left rear trailing arm dented and put hole in frame. Has frame damage.
2. B-pipe bent. Recommend replace.
3. Note: Entire A/C system aftermarket.
4. Oil pan gasket leaking. Recommend replace.
5. Front crank seal leaking bad. Needs now.
6. Timing belt tensioner making noise. Recommend now.
7. Valve cover gasket rubber stiff. Needs now.
8. Has prior front end damage also. Light does not line up.
9. Left front door drops when opened due to prior body damage.
10. Both front upper ball joint boots, both front lower ball joint boots and both outer tie rod end boots severely cracked and dryrotted. Recommend replace before splitting open and ruining components.
I had them do options 5-7 and ignored the b-pipe, oil pan gasket, and suspension items. I received a second and third opinion from Firestone and my friend that works as a mechanic. Firestone advised that something else could give the illusion that the oil was leaking and they couldn't find anything upon inspection. The shop my friend works at told me the b-pipe bent and suspension was just cosmetics. I also know that my friend doesn’t keep his car in the best condition as far as routine maintenance goes. He only fixes something when it breaks since they spend a lot of time working on other people’s cars and don’t have time of their own.
Comment: The independent shop forgot to do a brake fluid flush and I also forgot to check my invoice for it, so maybe they're not as thorough as I thought. My brakes were acting funny (would go down all the way to the floor) since I had the car before the brake fluid flush was done and worked fine since the flush.
I didn't come back to that independent shop until 10/08 to get the spark plug wires, distributor cap, and a valve adjustment done. It was cheaper than Firestone where I normally get my oil changes and I wanted to use OEM parts. When I brought it in, they told me I was due for my 135k service and also oil was leaking from the oil pan gasket and/or drain plug. They didn’t know the condition of the plugs or threads and thought they might be stripped since I don’t have my oil changes done by them. I told them I would bring it back for the 135k inspection, so it wasn’t checked on the spot.
During the inspection, they found the drain plug washer was crushed, and re-used too many times. It didn’t torque right so they replaced it. I didn’t need to have the oil pan gasket replaced. However, the following was discovered on the 135k check:
1. Radiator leaking at lower seam. Upper seam has rust buildup. Recommend replace radiator with thermostat and auxiliary fan switch.
2. Right outer tie rod end boot torn. No grease in joint.
3. Lower radiator hose leaking at thermostat housing. Recommend replace with new clamps.
4. Powersteering fluid black and nasty. Should be flushed ASAP.
5. Both front strut has some wetness starting around collar.
6. Bolt missing from left rear e-brake cable.
7. Left rear e-brake cable routed wrong and rubbing into cable shroud.
8. Both rear brake lines missing retaining clips.
9. Left rear toe set point is maxed out. Recommend alignment.
They showed me the leak at the radiator and the incorrect routing of the e-brake. I had the rear trailing arm replaced by the body shop owner before I purchased the car. I found it interesting that they didn’t mention anything about the bent b-pipe or the ball joint boot but they only noticed the right tie rod end boot instead of both as it was previously found 10 months ago.
I had a 400 mi road trip scheduled so I had them replace the radiator items, rerouted ebrake cable, and perform the power steering flush. The right outer tie rod wasn’t done.
I came back in Dec 08 to have an oil change done and my rear brakes inspected since it was making noise. The following was found:
1. Rear brakes good. 4.5mm and cylinders good.
2. Recommend clean and adjust rear brakes, dirty.
3. Front brakes 4mm pads plus hardware dry, rotors glazed.
4. Left front bellow boot torn on rack, recommend replace.
I had them replace the right outer tie rod end boot since they said it would wear out the tires. It was during the replacement they discovered the bellow boot needed to be replaced. Also, an alignment needed to be done after these changes which they take to another shop. On a prior alignment with Firestone it was still off but after replacing the parts it was able to be aligned within tolerance.
Recently I went back for an oil change. The following was noted:
1. Pan gasket leaking excessive. Recommend replace.
2. Both front upper, both front lower, and both outer tie rod end boots cracked and dryrotted, all need replaced ASAP (right outer tie rod end boot under warranty)
3. Both outer C.V. boots cracked and dryrotted, recommend replace ASAP.
Items 2 and 3 weren’t noted in the 135k inspection but item 2 was discovered over a year ago. The owner told me it’s normal for a old like mine to have those parts wear out. The car is now over 145k miles. Over 29k miles was put on it since the ball joints and outer tie rod end boots “needed” to be replaced. They expanded their business into American cars now instead of just working on Japanese cars. They’re also focused on preventive maintenance. I did notice everytime they told me they “pressurized” tires they didn’t really check them. I maintain my psi at 44 which is the max sidewell instead of the 32 listed in the manual for increased MPG. I’m thinking of taking my car back to Firestone for a second opinion.
The car was purchased for $3200 and looking over past receipts for things like battery replacement, windshield replacement, headlights, and other parts, I’ve spent $3300 in 14 months. The next set of repairs would cost me about $800.
Maintenance/repair cost to date: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...YSNqyDUg&gid=2
Since it was used, I decided to have the timing belt and waterpump replaced. I chose an independent shop that only works on Japanese vehicles and uses OEM parts. As a bonus, they also give me 10% discounts and provide loaner cars. On my first visit in 1/08 the following was found:
1. Car has been in major accident with left rear damage. Left rear trailing arm dented and put hole in frame. Has frame damage.
2. B-pipe bent. Recommend replace.
3. Note: Entire A/C system aftermarket.
4. Oil pan gasket leaking. Recommend replace.
5. Front crank seal leaking bad. Needs now.
6. Timing belt tensioner making noise. Recommend now.
7. Valve cover gasket rubber stiff. Needs now.
8. Has prior front end damage also. Light does not line up.
9. Left front door drops when opened due to prior body damage.
10. Both front upper ball joint boots, both front lower ball joint boots and both outer tie rod end boots severely cracked and dryrotted. Recommend replace before splitting open and ruining components.
I had them do options 5-7 and ignored the b-pipe, oil pan gasket, and suspension items. I received a second and third opinion from Firestone and my friend that works as a mechanic. Firestone advised that something else could give the illusion that the oil was leaking and they couldn't find anything upon inspection. The shop my friend works at told me the b-pipe bent and suspension was just cosmetics. I also know that my friend doesn’t keep his car in the best condition as far as routine maintenance goes. He only fixes something when it breaks since they spend a lot of time working on other people’s cars and don’t have time of their own.
Comment: The independent shop forgot to do a brake fluid flush and I also forgot to check my invoice for it, so maybe they're not as thorough as I thought. My brakes were acting funny (would go down all the way to the floor) since I had the car before the brake fluid flush was done and worked fine since the flush.
I didn't come back to that independent shop until 10/08 to get the spark plug wires, distributor cap, and a valve adjustment done. It was cheaper than Firestone where I normally get my oil changes and I wanted to use OEM parts. When I brought it in, they told me I was due for my 135k service and also oil was leaking from the oil pan gasket and/or drain plug. They didn’t know the condition of the plugs or threads and thought they might be stripped since I don’t have my oil changes done by them. I told them I would bring it back for the 135k inspection, so it wasn’t checked on the spot.
During the inspection, they found the drain plug washer was crushed, and re-used too many times. It didn’t torque right so they replaced it. I didn’t need to have the oil pan gasket replaced. However, the following was discovered on the 135k check:
1. Radiator leaking at lower seam. Upper seam has rust buildup. Recommend replace radiator with thermostat and auxiliary fan switch.
2. Right outer tie rod end boot torn. No grease in joint.
3. Lower radiator hose leaking at thermostat housing. Recommend replace with new clamps.
4. Powersteering fluid black and nasty. Should be flushed ASAP.
5. Both front strut has some wetness starting around collar.
6. Bolt missing from left rear e-brake cable.
7. Left rear e-brake cable routed wrong and rubbing into cable shroud.
8. Both rear brake lines missing retaining clips.
9. Left rear toe set point is maxed out. Recommend alignment.
They showed me the leak at the radiator and the incorrect routing of the e-brake. I had the rear trailing arm replaced by the body shop owner before I purchased the car. I found it interesting that they didn’t mention anything about the bent b-pipe or the ball joint boot but they only noticed the right tie rod end boot instead of both as it was previously found 10 months ago.
I had a 400 mi road trip scheduled so I had them replace the radiator items, rerouted ebrake cable, and perform the power steering flush. The right outer tie rod wasn’t done.
I came back in Dec 08 to have an oil change done and my rear brakes inspected since it was making noise. The following was found:
1. Rear brakes good. 4.5mm and cylinders good.
2. Recommend clean and adjust rear brakes, dirty.
3. Front brakes 4mm pads plus hardware dry, rotors glazed.
4. Left front bellow boot torn on rack, recommend replace.
I had them replace the right outer tie rod end boot since they said it would wear out the tires. It was during the replacement they discovered the bellow boot needed to be replaced. Also, an alignment needed to be done after these changes which they take to another shop. On a prior alignment with Firestone it was still off but after replacing the parts it was able to be aligned within tolerance.
Recently I went back for an oil change. The following was noted:
1. Pan gasket leaking excessive. Recommend replace.
2. Both front upper, both front lower, and both outer tie rod end boots cracked and dryrotted, all need replaced ASAP (right outer tie rod end boot under warranty)
3. Both outer C.V. boots cracked and dryrotted, recommend replace ASAP.
Items 2 and 3 weren’t noted in the 135k inspection but item 2 was discovered over a year ago. The owner told me it’s normal for a old like mine to have those parts wear out. The car is now over 145k miles. Over 29k miles was put on it since the ball joints and outer tie rod end boots “needed” to be replaced. They expanded their business into American cars now instead of just working on Japanese cars. They’re also focused on preventive maintenance. I did notice everytime they told me they “pressurized” tires they didn’t really check them. I maintain my psi at 44 which is the max sidewell instead of the 32 listed in the manual for increased MPG. I’m thinking of taking my car back to Firestone for a second opinion.
The car was purchased for $3200 and looking over past receipts for things like battery replacement, windshield replacement, headlights, and other parts, I’ve spent $3300 in 14 months. The next set of repairs would cost me about $800.
Maintenance/repair cost to date: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?k...YSNqyDUg&gid=2
Last edited by KrazyDawg; 02-26-2009 at 10:15 AM. Reason: added maintenance cost link
#2
02-25-2009, 03:49 PM
wow thats crazy i would have junked the car. some of those are an easy fix though so you should try to tackle most of it yourself and save a lot. I work in a tuner shop and sometimes people in shops arent honest and just get you for everything they can. I wouldnt buy a wrecked car cause that is how you get into these messes.
#3
02-25-2009, 04:22 PM
First thing.....once you find out the frame had some damage, you should have got rid of her, its like your spine, once its broken, it change your life, just like your car.
2. stop going around to diff shops, find one place that you feel comfortable with and stay with them.
3. I dont care if the only cars they deal with is american, a car is a car, they are all the same.....in away.
4. Next time you buy a car, do some home work, look under the car, check the frame....hell take it to YOUR mechanic, and let him decide if its worth it.
Long story short, i dont know if you have kids or not, but from what i read, that car doesnt sound good, for your safty and you kids. Dump it.
And now that you have learned your lesson on this, so be more careful buying used cars, some times you can find a good deal.....others you get screwd.
2. stop going around to diff shops, find one place that you feel comfortable with and stay with them.
3. I dont care if the only cars they deal with is american, a car is a car, they are all the same.....in away.
4. Next time you buy a car, do some home work, look under the car, check the frame....hell take it to YOUR mechanic, and let him decide if its worth it.
Long story short, i dont know if you have kids or not, but from what i read, that car doesnt sound good, for your safty and you kids. Dump it.
And now that you have learned your lesson on this, so be more careful buying used cars, some times you can find a good deal.....others you get screwd.
#4
02-25-2009, 05:08 PM
Recognized HCF Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brownsburg, IN 46112
Posts: 11,203
well i must say IF YOUR MISTER MONEY BAGS and the shop see this they will point out every minor detail!!!!!!! because everything they point out your probably gonna pay them to fix.
im fine with buying a wrecked car as long as the repairs where done right and everything fits nicely or dam close to fiting nice.
main thing is if posible always talk to previous owner about all the work hes had done or did himself. that can tell you alot about the previous owners maintance. you can hear a BS talker when they just say its always had the work done and oil changed every 3K miles.... thats the typical statement for i havent done much.
thats alot to read tho with all the suggested work to be done.... to say the least you dont have to have everything done that every shop tells you.... like all the boots and alignment parts... only parts i replace is what the ALIGNMENT SHOP tells me needs replaced... if the balljoints are not poping the alignment shop can still do a alignment very easily!
and as long as you dont mind about a few small things like a bit of oil leaking dont worry about it much just check your oil every now and then and fill it up. a leak is only 2 problems.... 1st if not checked regularly and filled up it could run dry and roast your motor, but mostly 2nd the oil leak just looks bad in your driveway!
the torn or bad boots are not a huge issue at al... until they start poping i dont worry abotu replacing... my 94 civic had both steering socks torn and it didnt effect anything with them torn... and my 96civic axle boot has been busted for AT LEAST the last 3K miles and still not making any noises... only downfall with it so far is it threw boot grease all over the inside of the wheels. jus tlooks bad. im not going to replace it until it starts popping!
well in short if its not causing a problem i dont worry about it. only replace what needs to be replaced, not well this part doesnt look to good.
im fine with buying a wrecked car as long as the repairs where done right and everything fits nicely or dam close to fiting nice.
main thing is if posible always talk to previous owner about all the work hes had done or did himself. that can tell you alot about the previous owners maintance. you can hear a BS talker when they just say its always had the work done and oil changed every 3K miles.... thats the typical statement for i havent done much.
thats alot to read tho with all the suggested work to be done.... to say the least you dont have to have everything done that every shop tells you.... like all the boots and alignment parts... only parts i replace is what the ALIGNMENT SHOP tells me needs replaced... if the balljoints are not poping the alignment shop can still do a alignment very easily!
and as long as you dont mind about a few small things like a bit of oil leaking dont worry about it much just check your oil every now and then and fill it up. a leak is only 2 problems.... 1st if not checked regularly and filled up it could run dry and roast your motor, but mostly 2nd the oil leak just looks bad in your driveway!
the torn or bad boots are not a huge issue at al... until they start poping i dont worry abotu replacing... my 94 civic had both steering socks torn and it didnt effect anything with them torn... and my 96civic axle boot has been busted for AT LEAST the last 3K miles and still not making any noises... only downfall with it so far is it threw boot grease all over the inside of the wheels. jus tlooks bad. im not going to replace it until it starts popping!
well in short if its not causing a problem i dont worry about it. only replace what needs to be replaced, not well this part doesnt look to good.
#5
02-26-2009, 11:35 AM
well i must say IF YOUR MISTER MONEY BAGS and the shop see this they will point out every minor detail!!!!!!! because everything they point out your probably gonna pay them to fix.
im fine with buying a wrecked car as long as the repairs where done right and everything fits nicely or dam close to fiting nice.
main thing is if posible always talk to previous owner about all the work hes had done or did himself. that can tell you alot about the previous owners maintance. you can hear a BS talker when they just say its always had the work done and oil changed every 3K miles.... thats the typical statement for i havent done much.
thats alot to read tho with all the suggested work to be done.... to say the least you dont have to have everything done that every shop tells you.... like all the boots and alignment parts... only parts i replace is what the ALIGNMENT SHOP tells me needs replaced... if the balljoints are not poping the alignment shop can still do a alignment very easily!
and as long as you dont mind about a few small things like a bit of oil leaking dont worry about it much just check your oil every now and then and fill it up. a leak is only 2 problems.... 1st if not checked regularly and filled up it could run dry and roast your motor, but mostly 2nd the oil leak just looks bad in your driveway!
the torn or bad boots are not a huge issue at al... until they start poping i dont worry abotu replacing... my 94 civic had both steering socks torn and it didnt effect anything with them torn... and my 96civic axle boot has been busted for AT LEAST the last 3K miles and still not making any noises... only downfall with it so far is it threw boot grease all over the inside of the wheels. jus tlooks bad. im not going to replace it until it starts popping!
well in short if its not causing a problem i dont worry about it. only replace what needs to be replaced, not well this part doesnt look to good.
im fine with buying a wrecked car as long as the repairs where done right and everything fits nicely or dam close to fiting nice.
main thing is if posible always talk to previous owner about all the work hes had done or did himself. that can tell you alot about the previous owners maintance. you can hear a BS talker when they just say its always had the work done and oil changed every 3K miles.... thats the typical statement for i havent done much.
thats alot to read tho with all the suggested work to be done.... to say the least you dont have to have everything done that every shop tells you.... like all the boots and alignment parts... only parts i replace is what the ALIGNMENT SHOP tells me needs replaced... if the balljoints are not poping the alignment shop can still do a alignment very easily!
and as long as you dont mind about a few small things like a bit of oil leaking dont worry about it much just check your oil every now and then and fill it up. a leak is only 2 problems.... 1st if not checked regularly and filled up it could run dry and roast your motor, but mostly 2nd the oil leak just looks bad in your driveway!
the torn or bad boots are not a huge issue at al... until they start poping i dont worry abotu replacing... my 94 civic had both steering socks torn and it didnt effect anything with them torn... and my 96civic axle boot has been busted for AT LEAST the last 3K miles and still not making any noises... only downfall with it so far is it threw boot grease all over the inside of the wheels. jus tlooks bad. im not going to replace it until it starts popping!
well in short if its not causing a problem i dont worry about it. only replace what needs to be replaced, not well this part doesnt look to good.
What do you mean by the boots popping?
#6
02-26-2009, 12:21 PM
Recognized HCF Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brownsburg, IN 46112
Posts: 11,203
sorry i ment the ball joints popping....
only reason the balljoints go bad is from the joints going dry from the boot beeing cracked and the grease getting washed out over time.... you can actualy get some grease and push it into the boot and simply use some electrical tape to wrap all around the busted boot afew times and it should help hold the grease in and let the balljoint last alot longer.
its alot cheaper that way and very easy. or just buy a new boot and pop the balljoint loose and remove the old boot and pack new grease on the balljoint and in the new boot and simply reinstall everything.
unless the balljoint is poping or just plain loose you can simply save the old one instead of replacing the whole thing.
but a shop is not going to tell you that or do it... they are going to give you a bill to just replace it so they can pocket alot more money!
only reason the balljoints go bad is from the joints going dry from the boot beeing cracked and the grease getting washed out over time.... you can actualy get some grease and push it into the boot and simply use some electrical tape to wrap all around the busted boot afew times and it should help hold the grease in and let the balljoint last alot longer.
its alot cheaper that way and very easy. or just buy a new boot and pop the balljoint loose and remove the old boot and pack new grease on the balljoint and in the new boot and simply reinstall everything.
unless the balljoint is poping or just plain loose you can simply save the old one instead of replacing the whole thing.
but a shop is not going to tell you that or do it... they are going to give you a bill to just replace it so they can pocket alot more money!
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