91 civic mini-me swap. Codes 8, 16. Need help troubleshooting
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Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 5
91 civic mini-me swap. Codes 8, 16. Need help troubleshooting
Hi, just joined this forum because I'm needing a bit of help with my civic.
This is a copy/paste of my thread on this issue at onecamonly. Just posting it for background so that I don't have to retype this again.
This is a copy/paste of my thread on this issue at onecamonly. Just posting it for background so that I don't have to retype this again.
Need help - Accessories cause tach to read ~0 rpm/ engine bogs down.
Background info on car - 1991 civic hb (dx). Mini Me swap w/ d16y8block and d16z6 head and distributor.
p28 ecu w/ boomslang wiring harness handling the obd0 to obd1 conversion.
This started as an issue where the car did not seem to want to start after short trips (eg needed a jump start if I didn't drive it long enough)
Then I began having kind of an intermittent problem where the tach would "dance" or read ~0rpm's while driving. sometimes this caused the engine to bog down and hesitate sometimes not.
Progressed to needing a jump after any trip to start the car again.
Now the car will start, but is not really drivable due to hesitation when put under load. Electrical load from any accessory causes the engine to bog down severely. This seems dependent on how large the load is. For example, the dome light will cause engine rpm to drop a bit (more than it should but not enough for the engine to try to die), headlights or heater blower at full tilt will cause the engine to bog down severely and the tach to read ~0rpm.
I've redone the battery to chassis ground and engine block to chassis ground with 4 gauge wire to clean sanded ground locations. I've replaced the distributor. I've replaced the battery. The alternator was replaced about 3 months ago but I did not replace the battery until ~2months afterward. Alternator was a rebuilt unit from Autozone.
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The low battery light has not been coming on. The alternator reads about 14.5 volts while the car is running (tested using the terminal on top of the alternator and the ground at the battery).
I checked the cel's tonight. The ecu is giving error codes 6,10,14,16,19,20,41.
The codes 19,20,and 41 can be explained
the ecu is auto trans and the car has a 5spd manual (code 19)
this is an obd 0 to obd1 conversion using the boomslang harness so there is no eld as far as I know (code 20)
the o2 sensor is the single wire variety but is in the proper location (from what I understand) on the exhaust manifold (code 41)
The IACV code (14) is being thrown because I have it unplugged at the moment. I think I did not do something properly when I cleaned it as the car started idling at 2500-2000 rpms. I cleaned it while I was redoing the chassis and engine block grounds and after discovering a new problem when I hooked it back up, I opted to leave it unplugged until I get my current issue resolved.
This leaves codes 6 ect sensor(probably is actually an old/bad sensor), code 10 iat sensor, and code 16 fuel injector system (may be caused by the aftermarket fuel rail)
Sorry if I'm a bit lacking with my descriptions, I was not actually the one that performed the mini-me swap and obd0-obd1 conversion. I purchased it that way from a friend who had just recently finished it. I'm still in the process of learning how all these things work while out the kinks that i suppose were caused by a lack of attention to detail during the swap/conversion.
Back to the problem here: What might some of these codes be caused by? Could any of them be related to this issue? Have I made any mistakes in the assumptions I made above?
Also wondered if my problem might be caused by this:
http://www.sparkys-answers.com/2009/...use-blown.html
http://hondaswap.com/civic-del-sol-e...etector-76522/
the symptoms sound very similar
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Wow, after having this thing in the shop for almost 3 months, I finally pulled it out because the guy was not working on it. So I bought a new stock wiring harness for the car and re-did the obb0-obd1 conversion, dpfi-mpfi conversion, and 4 wire O2 sensor conversion. This is a new harness and new ecu now. I'm still getting 3 codes: TPS(7), TDC(, and Fuel injectors(16). The TPS(7) code is there because I need to extend the tps connector a bit further so that I can connect it. The TDC( code may be due to me botching the solder connections for those 2 wires coming from the distributor. Not sure on that I'll have to do a continuity test tomorrow. No Idea why I have the fuel injector code still. I checked continuity to ground for them before I started it. They all measured 31.8 ohms from the injector to the battery ground cable. I have not used a timing light to adjust the timing yet, will do that tomorrow. It started up and seemed to run alright even with these codes, though I haven't driven it anywhere yet. I did notice that the radiator fan never came on and the engine got a bit hot after about 15mins.
I suppose my questions now are: could the TDC or FI codes be due to it being out of time? Could either of those codes be due to the tps not being connected? Also wondered if anyone has advice on how to troubleshoot the radiator fan not turning on.
Thanks, any advice would be appreciated
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Ok, I've fixed the TPS connector. It should be fine now.
I was also wrong about the resistance on the fuel injectors. I was measuring the resistance of the signal wires to the battery ground. This path goes through the ecu, which I suppose is why it came out to 31.8 ohms. The resistance between the fuel injector grounds and the negative battery terminal is 2ohms.
Measured the resistance between the two TDC pins on the distributor harness. It measure 388 ohms, which I think is within spec. Also measured the resistance of my wiring for the TDC sensor from the distributor harness to the ecu. One wire measures 0.8 ohms the other measures 1 ohm. This doesn't seem like it should be enough resistance to cause problems, but I'm not sure exactly how sensitive those inputs are to resistance changes. Could not find an spec for acceptable range of resistance on the wiring going from the TDC back to the ecu.
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TPS code is gone. TDC( and Fuel Injector(16) codes are still present after a couple of ecu resets. I timed the engine, then tried to take it around the block. Seemed alright at first, maybe just a bit hesitant from idle. Then it started to not want to rev past ~3-4k, was loosing power. Then it tried to die whenever I put it in second gear, so I had to keep it in first. Finally died just down the street from my house giving me the low battery indicator. not sure why though as the battery is still fully charged and will crank the engine.
Are the two codes it is still throwing causing this behaviour? Does anyone know how I should go about finding the cause of the fuel injector code?
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Looking for any type of insight on what I need to do now. I can't think of anything other than to troubleshoot the injector and tdc codes. I'm not sure how to do either though.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Background info on car - 1991 civic hb (dx). Mini Me swap w/ d16y8block and d16z6 head and distributor.
p28 ecu w/ boomslang wiring harness handling the obd0 to obd1 conversion.
This started as an issue where the car did not seem to want to start after short trips (eg needed a jump start if I didn't drive it long enough)
Then I began having kind of an intermittent problem where the tach would "dance" or read ~0rpm's while driving. sometimes this caused the engine to bog down and hesitate sometimes not.
Progressed to needing a jump after any trip to start the car again.
Now the car will start, but is not really drivable due to hesitation when put under load. Electrical load from any accessory causes the engine to bog down severely. This seems dependent on how large the load is. For example, the dome light will cause engine rpm to drop a bit (more than it should but not enough for the engine to try to die), headlights or heater blower at full tilt will cause the engine to bog down severely and the tach to read ~0rpm.
I've redone the battery to chassis ground and engine block to chassis ground with 4 gauge wire to clean sanded ground locations. I've replaced the distributor. I've replaced the battery. The alternator was replaced about 3 months ago but I did not replace the battery until ~2months afterward. Alternator was a rebuilt unit from Autozone.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The low battery light has not been coming on. The alternator reads about 14.5 volts while the car is running (tested using the terminal on top of the alternator and the ground at the battery).
I checked the cel's tonight. The ecu is giving error codes 6,10,14,16,19,20,41.
The codes 19,20,and 41 can be explained
the ecu is auto trans and the car has a 5spd manual (code 19)
this is an obd 0 to obd1 conversion using the boomslang harness so there is no eld as far as I know (code 20)
the o2 sensor is the single wire variety but is in the proper location (from what I understand) on the exhaust manifold (code 41)
The IACV code (14) is being thrown because I have it unplugged at the moment. I think I did not do something properly when I cleaned it as the car started idling at 2500-2000 rpms. I cleaned it while I was redoing the chassis and engine block grounds and after discovering a new problem when I hooked it back up, I opted to leave it unplugged until I get my current issue resolved.
This leaves codes 6 ect sensor(probably is actually an old/bad sensor), code 10 iat sensor, and code 16 fuel injector system (may be caused by the aftermarket fuel rail)
Sorry if I'm a bit lacking with my descriptions, I was not actually the one that performed the mini-me swap and obd0-obd1 conversion. I purchased it that way from a friend who had just recently finished it. I'm still in the process of learning how all these things work while out the kinks that i suppose were caused by a lack of attention to detail during the swap/conversion.
Back to the problem here: What might some of these codes be caused by? Could any of them be related to this issue? Have I made any mistakes in the assumptions I made above?
Also wondered if my problem might be caused by this:
http://www.sparkys-answers.com/2009/...use-blown.html
http://hondaswap.com/civic-del-sol-e...etector-76522/
the symptoms sound very similar
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Wow, after having this thing in the shop for almost 3 months, I finally pulled it out because the guy was not working on it. So I bought a new stock wiring harness for the car and re-did the obb0-obd1 conversion, dpfi-mpfi conversion, and 4 wire O2 sensor conversion. This is a new harness and new ecu now. I'm still getting 3 codes: TPS(7), TDC(, and Fuel injectors(16). The TPS(7) code is there because I need to extend the tps connector a bit further so that I can connect it. The TDC( code may be due to me botching the solder connections for those 2 wires coming from the distributor. Not sure on that I'll have to do a continuity test tomorrow. No Idea why I have the fuel injector code still. I checked continuity to ground for them before I started it. They all measured 31.8 ohms from the injector to the battery ground cable. I have not used a timing light to adjust the timing yet, will do that tomorrow. It started up and seemed to run alright even with these codes, though I haven't driven it anywhere yet. I did notice that the radiator fan never came on and the engine got a bit hot after about 15mins.
I suppose my questions now are: could the TDC or FI codes be due to it being out of time? Could either of those codes be due to the tps not being connected? Also wondered if anyone has advice on how to troubleshoot the radiator fan not turning on.
Thanks, any advice would be appreciated
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I've fixed the TPS connector. It should be fine now.
I was also wrong about the resistance on the fuel injectors. I was measuring the resistance of the signal wires to the battery ground. This path goes through the ecu, which I suppose is why it came out to 31.8 ohms. The resistance between the fuel injector grounds and the negative battery terminal is 2ohms.
Measured the resistance between the two TDC pins on the distributor harness. It measure 388 ohms, which I think is within spec. Also measured the resistance of my wiring for the TDC sensor from the distributor harness to the ecu. One wire measures 0.8 ohms the other measures 1 ohm. This doesn't seem like it should be enough resistance to cause problems, but I'm not sure exactly how sensitive those inputs are to resistance changes. Could not find an spec for acceptable range of resistance on the wiring going from the TDC back to the ecu.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
TPS code is gone. TDC( and Fuel Injector(16) codes are still present after a couple of ecu resets. I timed the engine, then tried to take it around the block. Seemed alright at first, maybe just a bit hesitant from idle. Then it started to not want to rev past ~3-4k, was loosing power. Then it tried to die whenever I put it in second gear, so I had to keep it in first. Finally died just down the street from my house giving me the low battery indicator. not sure why though as the battery is still fully charged and will crank the engine.
Are the two codes it is still throwing causing this behaviour? Does anyone know how I should go about finding the cause of the fuel injector code?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Looking for any type of insight on what I need to do now. I can't think of anything other than to troubleshoot the injector and tdc codes. I'm not sure how to do either though.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanks
Thread Starter
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Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 5
I've also found some cold solder joints on the main relay. It figure that it may be causing the fuel injector code. I'll be replacing it in a bit here when I can get a ride to the parts store. Does anyone have ideas on what could be causing the TDC code?
Recognized HCF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 10,023
Get your basic electrical system in order first. Measure the voltage at the battery (on the lead posts that are part of the battery) with engine running, should be around 14. Check the grounds by measuring from the battery (-) lead post to the engine and to the body, should be very close to zero volts. Check continuity from the alternator output post to battery (+). It really sounds like there is trouble with the power feeding through the underhood fuse box, such as having one of the main fuses blown. Check the ECU ground on the thermostat.
When you have major voltage issues like this, all kinds of codes will be thrown, most of them spurious. So don't worry about codes yet.
When you have major voltage issues like this, all kinds of codes will be thrown, most of them spurious. So don't worry about codes yet.
Last edited by mk378; Jul 14, 2010 at 07:50 AM.
Thread Starter
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Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 5
Alright, I've replaced the main relay and fixed my fuel injector wiring. The ecu is not throwing any codes now. The engine is still a little hard to start. Usually takes a couple of tries. Also any abrupt throttle change at lower rpm's (> ~2500) will cause the engine to almost die.
I've timed it using the factory timing marks on the bottom end and the little notch/crosshair fixture on the head. To get these to line up, I had to use my aem cam gear to retard the timing by about 5-6 degrees and then fine tune it with the distributor.
I'll be changing the fuel filter tonight and checking the fuel system pressure tomorrow.
I wonder if the factory timing marks do not apply since the head and block are different models (d16y8 block and d16z6 head).
Does anyone know if this is the case, and if so how would I go about getting the timing adjusted properly?
I've timed it using the factory timing marks on the bottom end and the little notch/crosshair fixture on the head. To get these to line up, I had to use my aem cam gear to retard the timing by about 5-6 degrees and then fine tune it with the distributor.
I'll be changing the fuel filter tonight and checking the fuel system pressure tomorrow.
I wonder if the factory timing marks do not apply since the head and block are different models (d16y8 block and d16z6 head).
Does anyone know if this is the case, and if so how would I go about getting the timing adjusted properly?
Recognized HCF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 10,023
So you don't have the slowing down / stalling from turning the lights on any more? It's hard to follow when you posted the whole history.
Set adjustable cam gears to zero unless you're doing advanced tuning (chips, turbos, etc and really know what you're doing). Remember that the ECU jumper must be in place to set spark timing.
Set adjustable cam gears to zero unless you're doing advanced tuning (chips, turbos, etc and really know what you're doing). Remember that the ECU jumper must be in place to set spark timing.
Thread Starter
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Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 5
Sorry I know the whole story is a bit long. Here's the condensed version:
91 dx Mini Me swap w/ d16y8 block and d16z6 head. OBD 0 to 1 conversion. MPFI conversion. 4 wire O2 conversion.
So I've re done all the wiring conversions mentioned, Making sure every joint was soldered.
Replaced the ECT sensor, IAT sensor, and O2 sensor
Replaced the distributor as well as the cap and rotor
Replaced the alternator
Replaced the ecu
Cleaned the IACV
Changed oil and coolant
I may have replaced the spark plugs as well, but I really can't remember.
The car is no longer having any issues w/ electrical accessories.
It is not throwing any codes.
It idles smoothly.
To get the timing set using the factory timing marks on the block, I had to retard the timing by about 5-6 degrees on the adjustable cam gear. This is because the distributor did not offer enough timing retard to get the timing marks lined up. Is this normal on a mini me swap or should I be looking into this?
The only issues left are: It is difficult to start, takes a few tries.
Also when it is at idle, smooth slow motion the the throttle will cause it to rev up just fine. Does not seem to hit any rpm wall. However any abrupt movement of the throttle will cause the engine to stall. Any suggestions?
I've also noticed that this is not a normal mini-me swap since both the block and head were VTEC . Is there anything I should be concerned about with that?
91 dx Mini Me swap w/ d16y8 block and d16z6 head. OBD 0 to 1 conversion. MPFI conversion. 4 wire O2 conversion.
So I've re done all the wiring conversions mentioned, Making sure every joint was soldered.
Replaced the ECT sensor, IAT sensor, and O2 sensor
Replaced the distributor as well as the cap and rotor
Replaced the alternator
Replaced the ecu
Cleaned the IACV
Changed oil and coolant
I may have replaced the spark plugs as well, but I really can't remember.
The car is no longer having any issues w/ electrical accessories.
It is not throwing any codes.
It idles smoothly.
To get the timing set using the factory timing marks on the block, I had to retard the timing by about 5-6 degrees on the adjustable cam gear. This is because the distributor did not offer enough timing retard to get the timing marks lined up. Is this normal on a mini me swap or should I be looking into this?
The only issues left are: It is difficult to start, takes a few tries.
Also when it is at idle, smooth slow motion the the throttle will cause it to rev up just fine. Does not seem to hit any rpm wall. However any abrupt movement of the throttle will cause the engine to stall. Any suggestions?
I've also noticed that this is not a normal mini-me swap since both the block and head were VTEC . Is there anything I should be concerned about with that?
Recognized HCF Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 10,023
No that is not normal. You should be able to set the cam close enough (within one tooth) using a stock zero degree cam gear and then be able to get proper spark timing using the distributor adjustment.
Confirm that the ECU is in test mode while setting spark timing. If you set the timing in normal run mode, it will end up way retarded. After you put the jumper in, the CEL should come on steady when you restart the engine to set the timing.
Make sure all the distributor sensors are wired with proper polarity. It does matter which of the two wires from the CKP, CYL and TDC goes to which terminal of the ECU. This will throw the timing off and possibly give sensor codes.
Test your TPS using a voltmeter, both for proper zero (0.4 to 0.5 volts) and smooth response as you open the throttle (key on but engine not running).
Confirm that the ECU is in test mode while setting spark timing. If you set the timing in normal run mode, it will end up way retarded. After you put the jumper in, the CEL should come on steady when you restart the engine to set the timing.
Make sure all the distributor sensors are wired with proper polarity. It does matter which of the two wires from the CKP, CYL and TDC goes to which terminal of the ECU. This will throw the timing off and possibly give sensor codes.
Test your TPS using a voltmeter, both for proper zero (0.4 to 0.5 volts) and smooth response as you open the throttle (key on but engine not running).
Thread Starter
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Junior Member
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Posts: 5
I've made sure that the distributor was wired with proper polarity.
The ecu diagnostic port was jumpered and the cel was on constantly when I was setting the timing. Does the mean the timing belt is not aligned properly since the timing is so far advanced that I have to use the cam gear to retard it ~5 degrees just to get it in the range that I can dial it in with the distributor?
If so, do I need to inspect the timing belt for damage? What would I look for? What will I need to do to get it aligned properly?
I assume the output voltage on the TPS could be non linear as the throttle is pushed in but, still not cause the ecu to throw a code if the upper and lower limits are within spec. Is this why you still want me to test it even though there is no code thrown for it, or is there something else that could be going on?
Sorry for all the questions here. I'm sure some of them are really basic. I'm a computer tech so I can handle the schematics, wiring diagrams, soldering, continuity testing etc. When it comes to adjusting engine internals though I have little to no experience.
The ecu diagnostic port was jumpered and the cel was on constantly when I was setting the timing. Does the mean the timing belt is not aligned properly since the timing is so far advanced that I have to use the cam gear to retard it ~5 degrees just to get it in the range that I can dial it in with the distributor?
If so, do I need to inspect the timing belt for damage? What would I look for? What will I need to do to get it aligned properly?
I assume the output voltage on the TPS could be non linear as the throttle is pushed in but, still not cause the ecu to throw a code if the upper and lower limits are within spec. Is this why you still want me to test it even though there is no code thrown for it, or is there something else that could be going on?
Sorry for all the questions here. I'm sure some of them are really basic. I'm a computer tech so I can handle the schematics, wiring diagrams, soldering, continuity testing etc. When it comes to adjusting engine internals though I have little to no experience.
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