'96 DX, with almost 200K miles on it. Well-kept/maintained. Only lightly driven... mostly two miles each direction to/from wife's work each day, plus to/from shopping, drive occasional drive 12 miles each way to mother-in-law's house... stuff like that. The car just doesn't get used that hard. It's perfectly in tune (though I'm noticing, lately, that it may need a valve adjustment soon, based on the sound I'm starting to hear). Doesn't smoke. Runs smooth as silk. Mileage is good. I'd say it's starting to use oil, but there's never any blue smoke; so it's likely a gasket somewhere or something. Recently smogged (by California's more rigorous standards), and it passed with flying colors... numbers were excellent. Besides the valve adjustment sometime in the next few months, and possibly whatever gasket's very slowly leaking, just about the only major thing is gonna' be the right-side CV joint probably sometime this summer (it only recently started to click a little tiny bit on left-hand turns).

So, my point is, it's a pretty darned nice little car, all things considered, despite its age and high miles.

Last night, my wife stopped at the bank on the way home from work, and got back in the car. Started it up. Backed out of the parking space. Drove around the back of the bank toward the parking lot exit, and, poof, it died... while in motion... while rolling.

She stopped. Put the car in "Park." Lights were still bright. Starter cranked just fine. But it just wouldn't start... wouldn't even come close... as if not a drop of fuel were reaching the engine.

A guy she knew stopped to see if he could help, and he helped push the car into a parking space, and then she sat in the car and called me and waited for me to arrive with my tools. (I'm not a mechanic, but I know how to do the really basic stuff; and I completely understand the technology of even the more difficult stuff.)

I first made sure there was fuel in the tank.

I then checked the fuel pump fuse (it was okay... both visually, and I checked continuity with a multi-tester).

So, in my mind, that left the fuel filter and/or the fuel pump (or maybe the fuel pump relay, I suppose). But it was too late in the evening to get a new fuel filter; and the car was in a dark lot and my flashlight battery was getting weaker so I wouldn't have wanted to replace it there, even if I could've gotten the part. Plus, I really wanted a more proper diagnostic... fuel pressure check on both sides of the filter, stuff like that. So we just locked it up and left it overnight.

This morning I drove (our other car) to the guy who has worked on the Civic before... a service station mechanic who's surprisingly good at what he does (used to work at a dealer, and has all kinds of training and experience), and we've come to like him.

Since I'm white, there may be no way for me to even write this without someone thinking it sounds racist or something, but I swear that's not how I mean it: He's Hispanic, and I notice that a lot of the Mexicans, Filipinos and Puerto Ricans in town who have those cool-looking, low-riding, souped-up small cars -- including, of course, some Civics -- take their cars to him. So I'm guessing he knows his way around them pretty well. He's certainly done right by us in the past on this Civic; we really like him.

Anyway, I described the problem and told him of my fuel filter and/or fuel pump su****ion (hmm... why is the dirty-language filter starring-out part of the word s u s p i c i o n ?... go figure), and he just grinned and shook his head "no" as if to say that I was likely wrong. He then told me that while it could, of course, be one or both of those things, he thought likely not. He said that in his experience, fuel pumps rarely go bad on Honda Civics (though he confessed that that doesn't mean he's never seen it... he's simply saying it's rare); and unless I've been buying gas from some oddball place (and he knows we always buy at either the Chevron or Shell stations), then it's probably not the fuel filter... even though I pointed-out that it's likely the original filter, never before changed in pushing 200K miles.

He acknowledged that in that many miles, what the heck, maybe it is as simple as the filter; however he said that if it was, then I'd probably be able to get the car started for at least a few seconds after it had been sitting all night. I had tried to start it again this morning before I went to see him, and it was exactly the same symptom in the morning as it was the night before, to wit: Bright lights (so good battery), starter turns just fine (and at full speed, so battery's not worn down yet), but the car just won't start... won't even act like it's gonna' start... won't even catch for a half-second. It just sits there and cranks... like it's starving for even a single drop of fuel.

He said he'd obviously check the fuel filter and pump; and with any luck it's one of them and so it won't be that expensive. But he warned that whenever he sees my symptom, it's usually something bigger... something electrical. He said it could be a short, maybe the ignitor, maybe even the computer. He said he's seen a lot of ignitors go bad; and he said that when they do there's usually some kind of short somewhere in the car which causes it; and that if he does't find the short, then there's no point in replacing the ignitor because it'll just quickly go bad again. So, he said, he must find the short... that is, assuming there's even a short involved. This, of course, made my heart sink because finding shorts, in my experience, tends to be one of the most time-consuming (and, so, expensive) things that one can ask a mechanic to do. Oy.

He claims his mind is open, but his deciding what it likely is before he even did a single test made me nervous. Remember that to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. That's why surgeons always prescribe surgery, and general practitioners always want to try medications and other therapies first. Pre-concieved notions can be costly!

Anyway, he obviously couldn't say much more 'til he diagnosed; and he's charging $60 for that. Gratefully, he had a friend with a tow truck who only charged $50 to get the car there; but I've already spent $110 and I know nothing about what's wrong. He said he'd at least get it diagnosed today; but that he couldn't actually effect repairs -- whatever they end-up being -- 'til tomorrow.

After driving away from the station, I also remembered the fuel pump relay (or are there two of them?... can't remember); but I'm sure he knows about that and doesn't need me to call to remind him. And a relay's electrical, so if that's it, it would at least make him right. Oy. I'm hoping whatever it is isn't terribly expensive! [sigh]

NOTE (added in an edit): Another consideration... the fuel gauge sensor in the tank went bad a few months ago... makes the gauge on the dash stay stuck on "Full" all the time; so we've just been resetting the trip odometer every fill-up, and re-filling at between 250 and 300 miles, give or take. I figured we'd just get it fixed next time we had anything done to the car. So the first thing I wonder is if the fuel gauge sensor/float in the tank could have anything to do with the pump. However, the other thing I wonder is based on the car having almost run out of fuel relatively recently. My fault. I hadn't paid close enough attention to the trip odometer, and I ran the car way past 300 miles, and I didn't know it was almost out of gas 'til it sputtered a little when I pulled away from a stoplight. I pulled-in to the very next station -- a no-name, bargain gas station -- and put $10-worth into it 'til I could find a Chevron or Shell, at which point I filled it up and reset the trip odometer to zero. The two things which come to mind from this are that maybe the bargain gas was dirty (although I'm sure it wasn't); or, more likely, maybe sucking fuel from the very bottom of the Civic's tank caused multiple-years-worth of whatever dirt and other crap might be in the bottom of said tank to get sucked-up into the fuel line, and into the filter... blocking it. Could that be it, maybe?

At any rate, I've now got 'til the end of today (or the start of tomorrow) to get educated on what it could possibly be so I can talk intelligently with him when he tells me what he thinks it is, and what it'll both take and cost to fix.

Thoughts, anyone? Anyone?


______________________________________
Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg@greggdeselms.com (email)
1-877-383-5148 (toll-free phone)

Please note that the phone is toll-free (from the US, Canada and Puerto Rico). If anyone wants to call (to save time) rather than respond here, feel free. If I don't answer, your message will trip my pager once you hang-up, and I'll call back in just minutes. So that the value of this forum will not be usurped, if anything is discussed on the phone from which others, here, could learn, I'll come back here and write about it. So please don't hesitate to call. Thanks!

 

Sounds to me like you already have the solutions. I'd have gone for the fuses first, then the fuel pump, then check the fuel filter, then go to the ignition.

BTW, great write up. It's refreshing to see someone who gives a complete account of what's going on, rather than just, "The car quit working. What's wrong?"

 

Has the timing belt been changed?
If that breaks, it'll suddenly stop and not start- don't ask me how I know.... LOL

 

The timing belt would also be my first guess. It's easy to check. Take the oil cap off and look inside when it is cranking. The rocker arms should be moving.

If the cam is turning the next test is to check for spark at one of the plug wires. Common ignition problems are a blown coil or the distributor rotor screw falling out. The igniter also can fail, but its not really as common as the coil.

If the spark is firing, then you start thinking about fuel problems. The easiest way to check the fuel system is to disconnect the fuel return hose at the firewall (loosen the gas cap first) and direct it into a container. Fuel should come out there when you crank. Checking at the return side verifies the flow rate through the filter and also that there is enough pressure to open the fuel pressure regulator.

 

Okay, everyone, here's how it all worked out...

...but, first, thanks for the replies. Very informative!

The mechanic had told me the best he could do was only diagnose on Thursday (and then do the work on Friday); and he had asked me to give him 'til the end of Thursday to diagnose, so I didn't go back 'til around 4:00 or 4:30 PM on Thursday.

He said the car had good fuel pressure (so it wasn't the fuel pump, or any of its relays), and that the filter was fine. He said he pretty much knew that that would be the case, but he wanted to be able to say that he was painstakingly thorough (in other words, he humored me). [grin]

He said he then tested the computer and, as he suspected would be the case, it was fine.

As suggested elsewhere in this thread, he did check the timing belt, though he said he knew that that wasn't it, either. That did occasion him to notice that it needed to be replaced, though, and so I now have an appointment scheduled for that next month. But I digress. Sorry.

So that pretty much left what he thought it was all along: The ignitor assembly, and the relevant wiring (or, if not, then at least something in the area of the distributor). Consistent therewith, he got no spark on any plug, and no plusation on any injector.

So he examined said relevant wiring which he said he already knew would be bad... and, sure enough, it was (and in exactly the way he thought it would be bad, to boot!).

He explained that while our Civic's main seals (and pretty much anyplace else from which oil normally leaks) were all pretty good, the valve cover gasket had a tiny leak in it, and so oil was blowing and running down onto those wires; so their insulation got brittle and developed cracks, causing the shorting. He said, though, that even without the oil, they usually go bad from age and heat, regardless... hence the problem tending to exhibit more on high-mileage Civics.

And apparently such shorting tends to take-out ignitor assemblies...

...and in our car's case, the pick-up coil, too (though he said that a pick-up coil can go bad a gazillion other ways, too).

So that's what he replaced: The pick-up coil, the ignitor assembly, and the relevant wiring/junction. Total parts: $285

He said it's pretty common on high-mileage Civics; and that he's seen many mechanics replace the ignitor assembly without first finding the shorting which likely caused it to go bad in the first place, and so the ignitor ends-up going bad again within a short time. He said it's a common "rookie mistake."

He then walked over to a shelf and showed me a brand-new-looking ignitor assembly that he said he had taken off another Civic a couple weeks earlier (I knew it wasn't the one he took off our car, 'cause that was in a box in our trunk). He said its owner, a back-yard mechanic, had installed it, but didn't also replace the relevant wiring. So even though said back-yard mechanic had gotten his Civic running again, the shorting quickly burned-up the new ignitor assembly. Then said back-yard mechanic brought the car to my mechanic...

...who repaired it properly, this time, including relevant wiring and junctions and whatever else was involved. (I couldn't help feeling bad for the back-yard mechanic, though, 'cause he ended-up paying TWICE for an expensive part... but there I go digressing again... sorry.)

So, bottom line, our Civic runs like a top, again. All fixed...

...albeit $577.09 later! [grin]

My faith in the Civic remains unshaken, though... as does the degree to which I continue to be impressed by it. I often wish my father were still alive... for all the obvious reasons, obviously; but also so he could be astonished by just how solid and reliable are Honda Civics. He swore by Fords his whole life (and was never dissuaded from that because didn't live long enough to see their really crappy years). And as a retiree from US Steel, he had been sufficiently indoctrinated with the "foreign cars are garbage" way of thinking... he was a supervisor in the 44-inch blooming mill back in the days when those with foreign cars knew to park them outside the plant or risk them being vandalized). So I think he'd be downright stunned by how nice this little Civic has ended-up being.

Of course, I remember being told that back in the late '80s by an employee of mine whose husband had just purchased a brand, spankin' new one. They swore by it; and something like 17 years later it was still in the family, being driven by their by-then-in-college kid.

So, anyway, regarding this Civic, as (or at least similar to what) Mary Chapin Carpenter once sang (and wrote), we think we'll keep her!

Peace!


_________________________________________
Gregg L. DesElms
Napa, California USA
gregg at greggdeselms dot com