Hello all,

I am looking at buying a new (used) car and fuel efficiency is my top priority. I'm looking at the VW TDIs, Toyota Prius, and of course the Civic Hybrid. So, if I went with the TDIs, even though they are diesel, they are fundamentally the same as every other car I have had. I'm not a "gearhead", but I can and do do some general car maintenance on my own and in general, I "get" the standard gasoline-powered car.

Here's my problem: I have to admit I'm scared to death of the hybrids. The fuel efficiency is a marvel, but the fundamental technology is so completely different and brand new that I feel like I just don't *know* anything about them. Does the engine still get an oil change, or has that been eliminated? (unlikely, I'm thinking) When the engine does have to engage, is it still the same ol electric starter engaging the flywheel or something new? Is there even an alternator anymore?
I don't really want answers to the above questions, I'm just showing the types of things I'm wondering and my almost-complete lack of knowledge in the area. And especially with buying used, I'm worried that I'll spend $10,000 on the car, and in 3 months have to spend another $3,000 on new batteries.

So, can anyone tell me what kind of things I should be looking for when evaluating a used hybrid? What information do I need to make an informed decision? How long are battery packs typically good for, or is that dependant upon some other factor that I need to ask the seller about? Can the fuel efficiency actually decrease *significantly* over time? I expect it to decrease somewhat, but I'd hate to buy it for the express purpose of saving money on gas only to find out it's about as good (or bad) as the car I just sold it for!

Any help would be appreciated. Thanks!

-Mike

 

I dont know too much either about hybrids, but my question to you is if you do a lot of highway or city driving. Keep in mind that when research hybrids that you are not looking at the EPA mileage on them, rather look at the observed mileage through various road tests and you will see that they are a lot less. A lot of this depends on whether you drive city or highway. if you drive/ live in the city thena hybrid is a good choice. But, if you don't i would rethink the hybrid idea because you will find that you may only be getting aboutup to 6miles more per gallon over a non-hybrid car of the same type, yet you will be paying about 5,000 dollars more for the hybrid technology. VW TDI's observed fuel economies are not that high either compared to a civic or similar smaller car, plus the engines are not that reliable and are expensive to fix. If you drive more on the highway, look into getting a non-hybridsmall car with good fuel efficiency as it will remove that 5,000 price on hybrid tech.

 

The Civic Hybrid, is different from the Toyota Prius, and even the Civic Insight Hybrid.

The Civic uses an integrated motor assist system, which is slightly different from the Synergy drive concept toyota touts.

The systems act a bit differently, with the Toyota system having a lot less mechanical connections, and a lot more electrical connections.

Basically though:

The Prius drives under full electric power up to a certain speed, and will then engage the gas motor. You can actually run a Prius under full electric power for quite a ways (something like 5-10 miles I think)

Under heavy acceleration, the gas engine supplements the electric motor/battery pack. Prius is great for city driving at slow speeds (because it can run on strictly batteries and not even use the gas engine unless it runs the battery down), and can get in the 60mpg city driving, 50mpg highway

The Civic Hybrids are different. The gas motor (1.3L) is constantly in use in the Civic, with the electric motor assisting under heavy acceleration. Newer generation Civics can shut some cylinders off while at constant cruising speeds, and save even more gas. This means you can never run the Civic under full electric power.

Under heavy acceleration, they drink down gas, just like any other car though, even with the electrical assist. 7th generations can get somewhere around 50mpg combined if you're very light on acceleration, and I know in my gf's 7th gen, I've managed 41.4mpg in traffic/city driving without heavy acceleration. 34mpg or so with my lead footing it.

Both cars when driven reasonably (meaning you're not flooring it trying to get the fastest 0-60 time possible), will be significantly better than most standard cars. With the newest generation of Civics, the difference in fuel savings from the standard Civic to the Hybrid aren't that great.

Does the engine still get an oil change, or has that been eliminated?
Yes, most hybrids take 0W-30 oil or so, but it is recommended to get the oil changed by the dealer and/or use dealer/OEM fluids.

When the engine does have to engage, is it still the same ol electric starter engaging the flywheel or something new?
Depends on the technology. Most hybrids have continuously variable transmissions, and use a unique system of a computer controlled mechanical power splitter to drive the wheels. In Toyota's system, there is no alternator, starter or real gear box. In Honda's system, the electric motor replaces the starter and alternator.

Is there even an alternator anymore?
No, see above.

How long are battery packs typically good for, or is that dependant upon some other factor that I need to ask the seller about?
Honda's have a 8 year/80,000 mile, or 10 year/150,000 mile warranty on the batteries depending on your state with the new 8th generation hybrids. I believe the same is true in the 7th generation/Insight as well.

Toyota has a 8 year/100,000 mile warranty on their batteries.


So, can anyone tell me what kind of things I should be looking for when evaluating a used hybrid? What information do I need to make an informed decision?
Honestly, I'd ask the owner of the Hybrid to foot out the cost for Honda's 81 point inspection on the vehicle (or Toyota's equivalent), and use the results of that to gauge the car, or take it to a local dealer and have them look it over. Either way, you should ask the standard car related questions, take it for a test drive, and give the car a thorough going over just as you would any other car you were looking to buy.

Also good to ask, is where they have been taking it for services, and if they have service records. I'd look into whatever shop they're using and ask about their experience with Hybrids, and even the car in question if they're willing to answer.

 

Wow! Thanks, cderalow for all the great information! Of course, it just begs more questions.

That sounds both good and bad. Good because less mechanical connections mean less chance for things to go wrong. Bad because when things DO go wrong in electrical connections, it's unlikely I'll be able to fix them myself. :P

Now this I find really fascinating. If the Civic's engine is always running, then doesn't that necessarily mean that the Civic will get less mileage? Do you get better "off the start" acceleration with Civic because of this? Or is it equivalent since "off-the-start" you would most likely be using the engine in the Toyota as well?
It sounds like if I wanted the best possible fuel efficiency, though, I'd take the Toyota and deal with the above-stated risk of electrical connections going bad.

Again, it seems like even during heavy acceleration, the Toyota may be a bit better in this regard and won't "drink down" quite as much gas? I will admit to being a bit of a lead-foot, but even 34 mpg is better than the 26 I'm getting right now with my VW Passat.

That's kinda what I'm banking on.

Again, I find this statement really fascinating. What is so different in the newer generation that the all-gas models are as efficient as the Hybrids? That seems to be arguing against getting a Hybrid!

Quote:

How long are battery packs typically good for, or is that dependant upon some other factor that I need to ask the seller about?

Wow, this is really good information. Unfortunately, I'm looking at buying a used model, not a new 8th gen one. So, what were the warranties on older models? Specifically 2001, 2002 and 2003?
I think it would also help me a lot if you could provide a mapping between "n-th generation" and model year, because right now I don't really have a firm concept on the differences between all the generations.

Quote:

Any idea on cost?


Also, to answer jd352's question: I drive 45 minutes one-way to work. About half of that is your typical city driving. About a quarter of that, roughly 10 minutes, is on a highway going 70-80 mph. The other quarter is on "local highway" where it's not an interstate of any kind, but I can go between 45-55 mph for long stretches and only slow down and/or stop when someone in front of me is turning.
I figure I'm okay on Hybrids because my actual "highway" high-speed driving is fairly limited-- only about 7-9 miles. The majority is at "medium" speeds as I indicated above with about 10-12 minutes on each of the end-points (home and work) being the usual 25mph crawl.

I'm really fascinated with the 50-60 mpg ratings of Hybrids, but I also understand that the "actuals" will be less, and could be even less still when buying a used. But, as I stated above, even 35 is better than the 26 I'm getting right now!

Again, excellent information. Thank you so much for this! Hope my additional questions aren't too pedantic.

-Mike

 

Just making sure you don't make the mistake that someone I know did. They bought a hyrid really thinking they would save gas but about 75% of their driving was highway and therefore the technology really became useless and they were out a couple thousand. Good luck on your search for one, I would get one before the summer though because as the gas prices go higher they are going to be more in demand than they already are so they will be way over priced just as the summer hits vs. now. But I figured you already knew that just thought I would say it while I was here.

 

That sounds both good and bad. Good because less mechanical connections mean less chance for things to go wrong. Bad because when things DO go wrong in electrical connections, it's unlikely I'll be able to fix them myself. :P


There are very few user serviceable parts/systems on both the Civic and Prius hybrids. For the most part, you're limited to standard maintenance items (brakes, fluids, air filter).

Now this I find really fascinating. If the Civic's engine is always running, then doesn't that necessarily mean that the Civic will get less mileage?

The 06+ Civic hybrids are rated at 49/51, using a CVT
The 01-05 Civic hybrids are rated at 45/51 for 5SP, 47/48 for CVT
The 04+ Prius Hybrids are rated at 60/51
The 01-03 Prius Hybrids are rated at 52/45

Which means, yes, the civic gets slightly less mileage

Do you get better "off the start" acceleration with Civic because of this?

Yes, because you're relying upon a small gas engine for primary source of acceleration, off the line you do accelerate at a rate almost comparable to a base model (DX) Civic.

Having driven the 8th generation hybrid, the 7th generation hybrid, an 8th generation EX civic, and a newer Prius, I can say that obviously, the newer all gas Civic had the best acceleration, but the acceleration of the Prius and Hybrids, was similar to the acceleration in my current 98 Civic DX (DX is a bit snappier, but it's pretty even if you're both to the floor)

Again, I find this statement really fascinating. What is so different in the newer generation that the all-gas models are as efficient as the Hybrids?

The i-VTEC system is slightly more advanced when it comes to fuel economy in comparison to the old VTEC implementations. It results in a fairly decent gas savings, with the newer Civics getting 30/38 (5SP), 30/40 (5AT), the cost difference of almost $4000 is hard to justify.


Wow, this is really good information. Unfortunately, I'm looking at buying a used model, not a new 8th gen one. So, what were the warranties on older models? Specifically 2001, 2002 and 2003?

I believe these cars featured the same warranty as the new ones, so 8 years/80,000 miles, and 10 years/150,000 miles retroactive in certain states.

I think it would also help me a lot if you could provide a mapping between "n-th generation" and model year, because right now I don't really have a firm concept on the differences between all the generations.

Honda Civic Generations:

1st: 1973-1979
2nd: 1980-1983
3rd: 1984-1987
4th: 1988-1991
5th: 1992-1995
6th: 1996-2000
7th: 2001-2005
8th: 2006-Present

Any idea on cost?

I'd call you local Honda/Toyota dealer, but I would guess somewhere in the $50-100 range.

Judging by how you describe your commute, even if you're flooring it constantly in a Civic Hybrid, you can expect 32mpg or better. I've never seen my gf's '04 Hybrid getting less than that, and I know that it's actually capable of getting the 48mpg (better even, record for her driving is 50.7 with the CVT), though the prius may be better suited to your needs (just please for the love of god, get a 04+ one, which while it is ugly looking, at least doesn't look as pathetic as the earlier ones)

 

"The Civic Hybrids are different. The gas motor (1.3L) is constantly in use in the Civic."

That's not exactly accurate with the 2007/2008 models. I test drove a 2007 Civic Hybrid last month and it has an idle-stop feature which according to Honda's website, "automatically shuts off the Hybrid's gasoline engine when you stop, so you save gas and help keep the air cleaner."

 

Dude, don't get a hybrid civic. My friend has one and it's mega slow and only gets about 33mpg average. My car is an EX and it's MUCH more fun to drive and I still get about 35mpg average.

 

I am a contrarian. I see risks as perfect opportunities. It is true that some percentage of Honda Civic Hybrid experience premature battery failure, but if you find one with battery pack already replaced, then you are getting a great car for a wonderful price.